math challenge of x' = x - vt

Has science taken a wrong turn? If so, what corrections are needed? Chronicles of scientific misbehavior. The role of heretic-pioneers and forbidden questions in the sciences. Is peer review working? The perverse "consensus of leading scientists." Good public relations versus good science.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Locked
User avatar
StevenO
Posts: 894
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by StevenO » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:59 am

StevenO wrote:
woldemar wrote:Here is my first video attempt. "Relativity challenge of October 2009"...just 2 1/2 minutes long.
http://watermanpolyhedron.com/videoforweb101.html
I really like the music.
Off course the math is still wrong:

1. x' = x - vt cannot be a Galilean transform.

A Galilean transform just transforms a coordinate from one coordinate system to another, so the formula should be x' = x - a, where a means a given distance. We cannot replace a with vt since neither of those two x variables is a Δx. There is no time in this transform since in Galileo's time lightspeed light was thought to have an infinite speed. If light has an infinite speed, then a rocket will see everything at exactly the same time as the object itself. There can be no transform due to velocity. Therefore a Galilean transform with a velocity variable in it is a contradiction in terms. It is impossible.

2. Einstein used x' = x - vt as a representation of this in his 1905 SR paper

Why did he do that? Since he assumed the Lorentz transform would resolve into this when c goes to infinity. To see why this is wrong check this:

Image
Miles Mathis wrote:In my long paper on Special Relativity I offer several strong arguments against this equation at the beginning of my proof. However I recently discovered another strong argument. It is the subject of this brief addendum.
I was re-reading Richard Feynman’s Six Not-So-Easy Pieces (a book I have attacked in several of my papers, including the Michelson paper and the a = v2/r paper), and found that he was using the equation in his lectures.
This book was first published in 1997: 92 years after Einstein’s paper. Feynman diagrams Special Relativity precisely the way Einstein did. His illustration matches the illustration I published with my proof point for point. So does his first equation: x’ = x – vt [see p.51]. This is Einstein’s first equation, both in the paper of 1905 and in the book Relativity. Feynman accepts it without question.
Let x’ be a distance in a moving coordinate system; x is the same distance measured from a stationary system. Feynman then explains it this way: “After time t the origin [of x’] has moved a distance vt, and if the two origins originally coincided, then x’ = x – vt.”
Feynman also confirms what Einstein told us in 1905: this equation is the classical transformation from one system to the other. Einstein calls it a Galilei transformation and Feynman calls it Newton’s principle of relativity, but the implication is the same. It is just the accepted equation. It is supposed to be what the Lorentz transformations reduce to if the speed of light is infinite.
The equation is telling us that vt is the distance between the two coordinate systems, and that you add this distance to x’ to get x. Feynman confirms this. It could not be more straightforward.
But the origin of x’ is not moving. If the origins of the two coordinate systems were together at t0 , then they are still together, since origins don’t move, by definition. This is just to say that if the train started from the station at t0 , then after time t the train still started from the station, which has not moved. Train stations do not move, just as origins do not move: t0’ and x0’ are still back at the origin, which is still back at the train station.
Einstein and Feynman are mistaking the back end of the caboose with the origin. Look at what the equation is telling us. Let’s say at t0 the back end of the caboose is at the origin of the moving system, S’. Let’s also say that x’ is the distance to the front of the same caboose, as measured from inside the caboose. The whole train then leaves us at the station and travels a distance given by the term vt. The equation x = x’ + vt is telling us that we, back at the station, will measure the length of the caboose as “how long the caboose is, measured from the caboose” + “the distance it has gone”. As if we will add the length of the traintracks to the length of the caboose! Do you see now how utterly absurd this is? It assumes that we can’t see, with our own eyes, that the back of the caboose has also traveled vt, and must therefore be subtracted from x’ + vt. What we are looking for in this problem is simply “how long the caboose looks to us.” This equation tells us nothing about that at all, not classically, not relativistically, nothing. It is the wrong equation. Classically, the correct equation is just Δx’ = Δx, as I have shown exhaustively elsewhere. Einstein imported an equation that Newton would have used to find the total distance from the origin to the front of the caboose after time t, and applied it to find the length of the caboose as seen from the origin. An absolutely momentous blunder, magnified by its being missed by a thousand Feynmans.
If light had an infinite speed, then the embankment would see both ends of any rod at the same time. The embankment would also see the origin and the point at the same time. If c is infinite, then all measurers will measure equal times, distances and velocities, in all directions and on all possible axes. x’ = x, v’ = v. This is because there is no difference between what I see and what the train sees. Light brings me exactly the same information that it brings the train, at exactly the same time. There can be no transformation equation: not a fancy Lorentz transformation, but also not a simple transformation like x’ = x - vt . So the given equation is not a Galilei transformation, in any sense.
First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
The past is out of date. Start living your future. Align with your dreams. Now execute.

User avatar
woldemar
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:17 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by woldemar » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:47 pm

Some have had troubles seeing the video. i have fixed that linking issue...and now it can be properly seen at
http://watermanpolyhedron.com/videoforweb17-show0.html
While statistics and measurements can be misleading, mathematics itself is not subjective.
Only believe in the results not necessarily the interpretations or the conclusions.
steve waterman - 1994

altonhare
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:54 am
Location: Baltimore
Contact:

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by altonhare » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:57 am

StevenO wrote:Discussing math is useless if the physical concepts are incorrect. The origins do not move. If a train leaves the station, the station does not move with the train.
Mathis' work on relativity is excellent and mirrors much of what I've worked out informally on my own.

Original Poster:

The problem arises here because people want to insist that all objects consider themselves "at the origin". Therefore when the primed object moves to the right its origin "moves with it". That's a fine consideration, as long as it's maintained consistently. Any observer in the U will consider itself to be "at the origin" and stationary.

As far as the "strict math" is concerned. The rightmost frame (B) will consider itself to be at a distance -Vt from the leftmost frame (A). A will consider itself to be a distance Vt from B.

In this notation the D stands for distance and the first letter in parantheses indicates that the distance is judged from that "frame" or "perspective":

D(AB) = +Vt
D(BA) = -Vt

B considers itself "at the origin" but B maintains the same coordinate system as A, i.e. not a coordinate system that is rotated 180 degrees around and thus has all its axes inverted relative to A. This keeps everything consistent.

If the point P is a distance X away from A:


D(AP) = X
D(BP) = D(BA) - (DPA)

= -Vt - (-X)
= X - Vt

i.e. X' = X - Vt

It is easy to make sign errors when calculating distance vectors. One must always keep the conventions firmly in mind. In this case, the math is not in error. It is the physics that is in error, and you should read Mathis' site.

What Mathis cogently points out is that we aren't interested in multiple observers really (i.e. 2 origins, a "moving origin"), we're interested in the one observer trying to make his incoming data/measurements, which are staggerred and delayed in various ways due to c, "straighten out" so they aren't staggerred/delayed anymore (as if the observer were right on top of the thing sending him/her the data).

The problem with 2 observers is somewhat trivial because of the symmetry. Observer A measures a velocity V and observer B measures velocity -V.

As Mathis describes, the interesting problem is with ONE observer and a distant moving object P. The "time dilation" is, of course, just the doppler shift. The "length contraction" is simply the staggerring of light signals from the "front" and "back" of the object.
Physicist: This is a pen

Mathematician: It's pi*r2*h

Plasmatic
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by Plasmatic » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:35 pm

Indeed Alton The paper you sent me reminds me of many of your comments in past phone conversations. I like his statement about geometry always being at least 1 dimension away from real space..... ;)
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

jjohnson
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 am
Location: Thurston County WA

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by jjohnson » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:27 pm

Miles Mathis lives (mostly) in the real universe. His analogies reflect this in a way that pure math cannot. His train station platform-as-origin is classic Miles, and neatly wraps up the reality of what an actual, relatively moving origin is and what happens to the measurements. Nothing! A rose in any other moving reference frame will smell as sweet to those observers with it. He is mechanical, and I think that the world is more mechanical than a lot of mathematicians and theoretical physicists realize, with real consequences to fallacious theories. If you are accelerated in your fuzzy spacecraft to 0.9c and are heading toward a cool red dwarf, your goose is probably just as cooked by short wavelength radiation just as readily as if you were "motionless" and the same distance from a blue giant O star. Moving reference frame or not.

altonhare
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:54 am
Location: Baltimore
Contact:

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by altonhare » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:42 pm

jjohnson wrote:Miles Mathis lives (mostly)
Just mostly? I haven't read all his stuff. Mostly just the relativity and calculus material.
Physicist: This is a pen

Mathematician: It's pi*r2*h

jjohnson
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 am
Location: Thurston County WA

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by jjohnson » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:36 am

Yeah, I haven't read anywhere near all his material, either! There's a lot to digest there. He's pretty pragmatic, despite some of the esoteric subjects he tackles. You have to sort of love an original thinker like that. As he is into trying to straighten out some of the errors he perceives in the underlying mathematics which mostly apply to scientific pursuits, in order to prevent further obfuscation by applying incorrect mathematical paradigms, we are on similar pages.

His delving into what makes the constants what they are is very perceptive, and his manipulation of their units is useful to understanding how he gets to equating acceleration and time to the fundamental dimension of length. They are unequivocally his ideas; he is good at defending them, and so far for me it is an uphill fight trying to see if I can knock the props out from under them! We have been having some discussion on his Stefan-Boltzmann constant paper because I was looking at seeing if stellar spectra (blackbody approximations, anyway) could lead to some intrinsic radius estimates based on luminosity, and I can't get his derived formula relating specific radiosity (total W/sq m) to radius to work. I'm no mathematician, but I should be able to do his mostly simple algebra.

I would think that relativists today must be chafing under the attacks by Miles, Crothers, and other individuals and groups working to disprove or undermine concepts which they have thought well-founded and above reproach for decades, now. At least Miles identifies the specific sources of error, going back to original sources whenever possible, and proffers fleshed-out solutions in their place - some of the others haven't got to the applied part of the process yet. At the particle and elementary forces level everyone is working in an almost immeasurably small domain, and it's all about the competition of ideas. Science is not about proofs, unlike mathematics. The competition is for the best explanations based on the best evidence available (if any).
Jim

User avatar
junglelord
Posts: 3693
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:39 am
Location: Canada

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by junglelord » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:39 pm

jjohnson wrote:Yeah, I haven't read anywhere near all his material, either! There's a lot to digest there. He's pretty pragmatic, despite some of the esoteric subjects he tackles. You have to sort of love an original thinker like that. As he is into trying to straighten out some of the errors he perceives in the underlying mathematics which mostly apply to scientific pursuits, in order to prevent further obfuscation by applying incorrect mathematical paradigms, we are on similar pages.

His delving into what makes the constants what they are is very perceptive, and his manipulation of their units is useful to understanding how he gets to equating acceleration and time to the fundamental dimension of length. They are unequivocally his ideas; he is good at defending them, and so far for me it is an uphill fight trying to see if I can knock the props out from under them! We have been having some discussion on his Stefan-Boltzmann constant paper because I was looking at seeing if stellar spectra (blackbody approximations, anyway) could lead to some intrinsic radius estimates based on luminosity, and I can't get his derived formula relating specific radiosity (total W/sq m) to radius to work. I'm no mathematician, but I should be able to do his mostly simple algebra.

I would think that relativists today must be chafing under the attacks by Miles, Crothers, and other individuals and groups working to disprove or undermine concepts which they have thought well-founded and above reproach for decades, now. At least Miles identifies the specific sources of error, going back to original sources whenever possible, and proffers fleshed-out solutions in their place - some of the others haven't got to the applied part of the process yet. At the particle and elementary forces level everyone is working in an almost immeasurably small domain, and it's all about the competition of ideas. Science is not about proofs, unlike mathematics. The competition is for the best explanations based on the best evidence available (if any).
Jim
Actually David Thomson has also done this indepedently and indeed its all simple algebra.
http://www.16pi2.com/
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

david barclay
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:59 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by david barclay » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:38 pm

junglelord wrote:Hi and welcome.

Nice paper, I agree and think your quite clever. Dimensional Analysis strikes again.
:D

I would hate to tell you, dispite the fact your correct, no one who matters, will talk to you about it.
Nor will your evidence change the world. Just ask Stephen Crothers, or Dave Thomson.

The Aether Physics Model showed other discrepencies in the dimensional analysis of GR that you have not touched on yet, importantly that there is no equality between energy and matter. Not in the statement e = m c^2, non at all, there is no equality in that formula....yet it is taught as gospel.
:roll:

Heaviside is a failure too. What a box of limited "knowledge"...really a imposter of Maxwells Theorum.
:?

I came to this conclusion three years ago. Heaviside is a dumbdown, and is not correct, nor does it represent the real truth of Electric Theory, let alone is it Maxwells Theorum.
8-)

I also showed a full and thorough review of Maxwells Original work from Quaternions, which reveals Scalar Technology and the Phase Conjugate Systems of Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter, the worlds first real Star Machine, the Theta Pinch, and also had a through review of Maxwells original thesis, line by line, from the point of view of APM via Dave Thomson.

There is a lot of nonsense out there perpetuated, but totally wrong, straight from the onset due to the math, but most of us never check the math, we just regurgitate it.
:cry:

There are two charges, yet only one is quantified? There is no strong nuclear force. What a mess we have being taught as the gospel and the so called immuntable laws, they dissolve under Scalar methodology.

Some of the most overlooked reviews of so called properly applied math is the Schwarzschild Radius.
The Schwarzschild Radius of Black Holes is not correctly applied. Stephen Crothers showed that.
8-)
http://www.sjcrothers.plasmaresources.com/Ricci.html
junglelord,

This all too true...E=MC2 is a very general statement that is seldom true.

In terms of aether energy the smaller mass of a similar material has the higher ratio of energy per unit of mass.

This gives a single hydrogen atom the highest ratio of energy per unit of mass for any known material, which is why there is so much of it. Hydrogen's relative state is very fast giving a very high field frequency response.

So it is natural for water, being two parts hydrogen, to be the fuel of life...it simply provides a high ratio of energy.

Therefore an element like uranium has an extremely low ratio of energy per unit of mass, so low that uranium is relatively unstable and attempting to stabilize by the process of decay.

I feel that the book Unity contributes to the EU concept which is a free down load for anyone wishing to read further......http://www.gravitycontrol.org
Last edited by davesmith_au on Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed link - had three "t"s in http - DS.

altonhare
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:54 am
Location: Baltimore
Contact:

Re: math challenge of x' = x - vt

Post by altonhare » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:12 pm

david barclay wrote:So it is natural for water, being two parts hydrogen, to be the fuel of life...it simply provides a high ratio of energy.
What about BeH2, BH3, CH4, and NH3? All have 2 or more parts hydrogen and have smaller mass than H2O.
Physicist: This is a pen

Mathematician: It's pi*r2*h

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests