Prehistoric Machined Artifacts

[Influx]

What do you people think of this?

http://www.gizapower.com/pma/index.htm


http://www.gizapower.com/

[Lloyd]

* It's very interesting and does seem to prove that the ancient Egyptians had advanced technology. I first read about Chris Dunn's findings about 15 years ago. I also read Joseph Davidovits's findings that some of the blocks used in or near the pyramids were made from a kind of concrete that was poured into large, reusable molds. He found that shells tended to be near the bottoms of such blocks and they had tiny air bubbles, unlike the limestone nearby. Also, hairs were found in such blocks, probably human hairs. Richard Hoagland thinks there's evidence of a lot of ruins of advanced technology on the Moon and Mars as well, but that evidence doesn't seem to pan out so far, though it's always possible that some of it will eventually. Lloyd Pye has published lots of evidence of human artifacts found in coal mines and under many layers of sedimentary rocks, though perhaps not requiring such advanced technology.

[Influx]

So where are the tools?

[mague]

So where are the tools?

The tools are there
http://www.travellinghistorian.com/egypt.html

Scroll down a bit. Actually they didnt change until today. The wooden hammer is still looking the same today.

Humans are able to create precise stone carvings and geometric froms with only hammer and chisel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cathe ... ndy205.jpg

The only problem is, that the time was the bronze time. Bronze is not hard enough for basalt. It looks like there is no proove for harder metal chisels. When basalt was used as pavement on streets it turned out that certain sorts of basalt turn slippery on their own. Their surface smoothed itself. If they had no iron or steel, they still had very hard gems But i also think they had access to "star iron". Many meteorites bring extremely high quality steel with them.

Interessting is, that Olmec heads in Mexico, Moaj heads on easter islands and those forms in egypt are all basalt. Maybe there is a way to support cutting/forming with some simple chemistry ?

[Tina]

What do you people think of this?

I don't think we have access to the actual technology used. Tools, equipment etc could have been pilfered centuries ago. The same mystery surrounds the Egyptian's use of Veneer technology developed around 3000 BC. And of course we must not forget that their are strong indications that the ancient Egyptians used electricity.

[GaryN]

Tina posted:

And of course we must not forget that their are strong indications that the ancient Egyptians used electricity.

From my delvings, it seems the Egyptians knew all about vibration, which we know can produce piezo-electricity. The only method that can produce coring/drilling feed rates comparable with those suggested in the article is by use of sonics/ultrasonics. NASA spun off some of its technology to the private sector a few years ago. Some of the piezo drills do not even need rotation. Maybe they used vibration to 'soften up' the rock, or they had ultrasonic saw blades ?

http://sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/successes/ss/7-022text.html

[nick c]

The Egyptians could not have worked in stone such as granite and diorite without the utilization of quality steel tools. Wrought and meteoric iron would not have been hard enough to do the job. Iron would have to be carburized, producing steel. Steel tools would have been rare and expensive and only used when other more common tools were not up to the task. Work in limestone may have been done with copper or bronze. I would like to see a historian or archeologist demonstrate how some of the fine detailed carving on these hard stones was done using "hardenend copper tools."
The anomaly is removed if one discards the chronology that places the pyramids in the 3rd millenium BCE. They were built in the 1st millenium BCE when steel tools would have been available. Postulating that the Egyptians were aided by alien technology is unnecessary.
Iron tools from the Old Kingdom, though rare, have been found. Most famous, is the an iron plate found in a shaft in the King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid by Howard Vyse in 1837. As it was found after blasting and there was no previous opening it is most certainly a part of the original construction. Analysis of the plate has shown that it was composed of pieces of smelted iron hammered into a single piece.
Also pieces of an iron pickax or hoe were found at Dashur, dated to the 6th Dynasty.

See: Pillars Of The Past History, Science, Technology as these relate to Chronology By Charles Ginenthal
especially chapter 7, "Iron, Diorite, and Other Hard Rock"

nick c

[GaryN]

nick c posted:

Postulating that the Egyptians were aided by alien technology is unnecessary.

I never mentioned alien technology. (For once. ) I am saying that the Egyptians understood vibration and its uses, much as they may have understood metallurgy. Where the Egyptians got the knowledge is unknown, but I suspect that if the library at Alexandria had not been destroyed, we would probably be, technologically, centuries ahead of where we are now.
And even with the very best steel tools, I don't believe it possible to finish granite with such precision, but maybe a stone mason or carver could answer that better.

[nick c]

hello GaryN,

Postulating that the Egyptians were aided by alien technology is unnecessary.

I never mentioned alien technology.

Perhaps I was being overly preemptive
I was not directing that comment to you or anyone else in particular, but rather only in a general sense, that often times writers look at the amazing architectural achievements and deny that the ancients were capable of such levels of development without outside aid.
The point of my post was that much of ancient history as is taught in classes is incorrect, resulting in anomalies such as the obvious use of steel tools during the Old Kingdom (copper and bronze age.) This is no little thing! Historians are insistent that the iron age (use of smelted iron) began around the 1st millenium BCE and that the height of pyramid building took place in the the 3rd millenium BCE.
Contrary to common sense, scientific evaluation, excavation, and stratigraphy are not used to determine chronology, they are subordinate to a desktop analysis that is based on the writings of a Ptolemaic era Egyptian priest, Manetho, whose goal was to impress the ruling Greeks with the antiquity of his culture and dubious astronomical synchronizations.

nick c

[mague]

Wrought and meteoric iron would not have been hard enough to do the job. Iron would have to be carburized, producing steel.
nick c

Hello nick c,

i have doubts here. There was a story about a german tribe on TV. I think they have been in the area that is now called Bavaria. I forgot the details, there was either a meteor shower or a volcanic eruption. However, after that they had access to high grade steel. They became rich and famous for their blades and the roman empire was buying all weapons they could get from them. Modern analyses showed that the steel they used is even today top grade.
In asia there are many legends about superiour swords made from star iron. I think nature/cosmos is able to deliver highly carbonized iron sometimes.

I agree that such tools, be it special steel or chisels with jewel heads have been very valuable back then.

[mague]

nick c posted:

Postulating that the Egyptians were aided by alien technology is unnecessary.

I never mentioned alien technology. (For once. ) I am saying that the Egyptians understood vibration and its uses, much as they may have understood metallurgy. Where the Egyptians got the knowledge is unknown, but I suspect that if the library at Alexandria had not been destroyed, we would probably be, technologically, centuries ahead of where we are now.
And even with the very best steel tools, I don't believe it possible to finish granite with such precision, but maybe a stone mason or carver could answer that better.

Acoustic support sounds interessting.

I am no stone mason, but look at the medival churches. All have been build with hammer and chisel. There was no technology the egyptians couldnt have access to. Its was muscle powered hammering.

[nick c]

Hi Mague,

I am no stone mason, but look at the medival churches. All have been build with hammer and chisel. There was no technology the egyptians couldnt have access to. Its was muscle powered hammering.

Agreed! Exactly. Quality steel (hammers, saws, chisels, drills, etc) tools and muscle power are effective for carving and sculpting the hardest stone. The problem is that the present chronology says the pyramids were built long before these tools were invented.

In Pillars Of The Past History, Science, Technology as these relate to Chronology a tool machining expert is cited on p.212 (Chris Dunn, whose website was linked to in Influx's original post):

Chronology of the historical development of metals, identifying copper as the metal of the ancient Egyptians for cutting granite is like saying that aluminum could be cut using a chisel fashioned out of butter.

also, same page:

Another expert in the field of cutting granite, Roger Hopkins, wrote:
"I am a stone mason by trade and in 1991 the PBS [Public Broadcasting System] series NOVA invited me to go to Egypt to experiment with building a pyramid; I quickly got bored with working the soft limestone and started to ponder the granite work. Here in Massachusetts my specialty is working in granite.
When I was asked by the Egyptologists how the ancients could have produced this work with mere copper tools, I told them they were crazy."

Maybe the Egyptologists are "crazy" or maybe it is just their chronology that is crazy.

There was a story about a german tribe on TV. I think they have been in the area that is now called Bavaria. I forgot the details, there was either a meteor shower or a volcanic eruption. However, after that they had access to high grade steel.

There are three types of [url2=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite#Meteorite_types]meteorites[/url2]:
1) stony, 94% of meteors are of this type
2) iron (and some nickel), 5%
3) mix of iron and stone, 1%
Only those of type 2 are useful for tool making, and while the ancient world was aware of and used meteoric iron, it was an inferior material for tool making as is wrought iron, unsuitable for working hard stone. There is no known "natural" smelting process to turn meteoric iron into steel. (Even if there was, what would they do with a chunk of hardened steel? How would they fashion it into tools without having the technology to make tools capable of cutting into steel?) Iron (regardless of the source) must be carburized in a concerted industrial process to produce the necessary quality steel. That process requires heating in the presence of carbon (for instance a hardwood charcoal) to temperatures of at least 950 degrees C (1,740 F) and then plunging (quenching) the material into water or oil. If the Bavarians were making high grade steel and trading with the Romans then they too were skilled in that industry, however it must be remembered that this is a much later time, well within the time frame of the iron age.

nick c

[Influx]

So all in all, You guys are saying that the machine like carvings in stone were done by hand?! I understand that this could be the case with vases and some other small stone artifacts. But what about the huge stone pillars?







And BTW, old churches used smaller much more manageable stone, like so.



http://www.nashfordpublishing.co.uk/cat ... drals.html

As apposed to the ancients, who did things like this!

[Grey Cloud]

Nice images, Influx. At the other end of the scale:
Alabaster vase
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... se_REM.JPG

Diorite vase (pre-dynastic)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Museum.jpg

How do you chip away at the interior of the vase when the shoulders are wider than the neck? Please don't answer: very carefully.

[nick c]

hi Influx,

So all in all, You guys are saying that the machine like carvings in stone were done by hand?! I understand that this could be the case with vases and some other small stone artifacts. But what about the huge stone pillars?

The Egyptians left us an image of how they moved large objects. From a 12th dynasty tomb at El-Bersheh:

Moving a Collosus

From I.E.S. Edwards, The Pyramids of Egypt:

In this scene an alabaster staue of Djehutihotep, which probably weighed about 60 tons, is mounted on a sledge pulled by 172 men. Water or some other liquid is poured on the ground to lessen the friction and thus facilitate haulage.

Simple machines, planning and coordination, and plenty of man power.

nick c