Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

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Bengt Nyman
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by Bengt Nyman » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:52 pm

querious wrote:Regarding Wal's Adelaide talk, Dave Smith wrote...

"Wal's work on beginning to really understand gravity is nothing short of outstanding."

I was wondering if anybody on this forum has any explanation as to why a neutral foil doesn't change weight upon becoming charged, if gravity is due dipoles within the Earth.

Also, in the new lecture, did Wal find a way around the circular reasoning that the nuclei fall because they're heavier, creating dipoles, thereby causing dipole gravity?
1. Free electrons added to (or removed from) a foil do not have the dipole anchors required to affect gravity and the "weight" of the foil. If you also charge the earth all you have done is to superimpose electrostatic forces to the force of gravity.
2. The idea that dipole directions are the exclusive result of gravity is wrong. The primary directions of dipoles are the result of strong internal coulomb forces within each body. Weak, external dipole coulomb forces between bodies slightly alter the direction of dipoles in both bodies resulting in gravity between bodies.
3. Ralph Sansbury's (and Wal Thornhill's) concept of dipoles exclusively pointing toward earth is consequently wrong and does not satisfy three body or multi body gravity.
4. The suggestion that the mass in each dipole would be pointing toward earth is not only wrong and a circular argument but also totally unnecessary to explain dipole gravity, which I originally did in 1996.
If you are interested in understanding dipole gravity and strong force see: http://www.dipole.se

querious
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by querious » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:54 am

Bengt Nyman wrote:
querious wrote:Regarding Wal's Adelaide talk, Dave Smith wrote...

"Wal's work on beginning to really understand gravity is nothing short of outstanding."

I was wondering if anybody on this forum has any explanation as to why a neutral foil doesn't change weight upon becoming charged, if gravity is due dipoles within the Earth.

Also, in the new lecture, did Wal find a way around the circular reasoning that the nuclei fall because they're heavier, creating dipoles, thereby causing dipole gravity?
1. Free electrons added to (or removed from) a foil do not have the dipole anchors required to affect gravity and the "weight" of the foil.
That makes no sense whatsoever.

So what if they don't have anchors? Undiluted by the existence of an opposite charge, they'd be even MORE effective than a dipole a generating "weight".

seasmith
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by seasmith » Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:09 pm

Querious wrote:
... why a neutral foil doesn't change weight upon becoming charged...
If it did, you would feel the extra weight upon your head, Do you ?

cheers

lokilokison
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by lokilokison » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:27 pm

I’ve waded through only half of the total posts in this thread and I’ve observed something: the conversation began and has continued for the last 4 months in a repeating pattern. This pattern seems cyclic and very mixed about Wallace Thornhill’s presentation on his theory of gravity. It also doesn’t sound like very many of those who’ve posted have come up with constructive criticism to his theory nor posited an alternate theory. That sounds harsh and I am willing to look at any theory that may have been submitted to this thread. Are there any?
When I watched his presentation (because I wasn’t privileged enough to have been present at the conference this year), I gathered Thornhill’s theory as a work in progress, with many details not worked out yet. From a light bit of research, Columbic force and other magnetic forces can and do work with the 1/r2 distance factor and can work through shielding material without induction. I could be wrong. It wasn’t that Thornhill made a detailed and illuminating discovery in the possible workings of gravity, it’s that he tried to show his musings of how an Electric Universe might evolve gravity. That is what I took from his presentation.
Trust me, I was put out when I went hunting for the formulas that someone in the EU groups might have come up with to replace Einstein’s elaborate, yet erred in parts, gravity formula and finally shed light on Newton’s missing revelations. I haven’t found one that wasn’t occulted in confusing presentation flow and omitted references to their highly technical (and sometimes newly created) terminology. Does anyone have a well-elucidated theory that is formed on credible logic and is fully formed? I do truly, as an earnest seeker, want to find one.
I will put my thoughts on gravity, to be fair, though with the understanding that I am not a highly educated person with a profile career. I am a naturalist at heart and do wish to attain a degree in Science, with hopes of finding a fulfilling career that helps us, Humanity, in our relationship and understanding of the Universe. That being said, here it is:
Without admitting to some form of Universal Medium, of which is the substrate of all substance and that fills all voids, galactic and subatomic, we will not truly find any satisfactory theory of gravity, much less a theory of Unity. Yes, friends, that which has been called Aether, Ether, Akasha, etc. We can’t understand material reality in it’s physics to the excruciating detail that we want without looking into the immaterial, as well. This is not pseudo-science, it’s Postmaterialism.
Einstein used in his Theories of Relativity, especially in parts associated with gravity, modified formulas from fluid dynamics physics and Euclidian geometry. In the fluid dynamics portion, he claimed that vacuum forces and effects worked as though “space” (the vacuum) acted as a supercritical fluid, one without viscosity. Let’s repeat that, as I understood from the material Einstein wrote, he treated the vacuum (“space”) as a supercritical fluid. This is contradictory to claims that the Theories of Relativity were devoid of references to the Aether.
Dr. Robert Moon (former professor of the University of Chicago) had voiced a theory of geometric nuclear arrangement of protons and neutrons in the nucleus of every atom. He went on to suggest that the same forces involved in the arrangement of particles in the nuclei were also at work in the macrocosmic arrangement of matter, even to the point of quantifying orbits and aligning material behavior in spacial movements. Why is this important in a theory of gravity? What if the mysterious forces that hold together nuclei also exert a more long-reaching force when coupled with a greater system of parts, like other matter and plasma?
Going further, other theorists, including Dr. Milo Wolff (Wave Propagation of Matter Theory), suggested that the Aether, and it’s activities, may be at the root of many of the mysteries that the contemporary scientific theories do not handle well. My thoughts are in agreement with them, and include ideas from many versions of the Aether Vortex theories (Oliver Lodge, Lord Kelvin, Renee Decartes to name a few contributors). That is not to say that I have the equations that would do justice, just the concepts.
With the flow of Aether through the protons (being micro-systems, perhaps toroidal in nature, that respire as a part of their existence and behavior), this creates the field of electrons (which could be seen as analogous to magnetic fields, rather than innate particles, perhaps) and neutrons are propagated through constriction of this duality (similar to a dormant state of a microbe). This set-up allows for the same sort of phenomena that we are familiar with, in regards to nuclear and quantum physics (at least the more experienced and less solely math-deduced). This also does away with the necessity for creating assumed particles (i.e. matter) like the gluon and such, just to “save appearances”.
Ironically, I’ll admit, I’m doing a bit of “saving appearances” to explain my hap-hazard theory of gravity, but, it has purpose. With Aether movement, we can say, like Conrad Ranzan’s theory, that “space” is cellularized. That is to say that the supposed vacuum is really cells of Aether, held loosely in those states by the forces at work in it. Wallace stated himself that he thought the Aether was just a sea of neutrinos, which were, in his opinion, a “dark” phase of matter, of which leptons were the smallest quanta of. This I’m not so sure of.
So, with Plasma being metabolized through cellular space, all other forces and phenomena, including light, are happening in the sea of Aether. This sea has, like water does, solid and liquid properties, when concerned with the forces of gravity and electromagnetism. If the pull of the tide of matter generates an induced side-effect (like water cooling as it flows quickly through a system) that charges attractive forces, any kind, then the “exhale” of Aether could be regionalized, giving way to structured and aligned properties of both matter and space. If a system of matter combined, as in a planet or other example large mass, is generating an attractive force to other matter, like two vacuums meeting or two energized nodes in a gap of a circuit, then gravity could easily be that force.
It’s the what of the difference between gravity and electromagnetism that is the conundrum, right? Gluons were thought, at one time, to be relative to unraveling the mystery of gravity, not finding the elusive Graviton. If Aether changes modes, like plasma, then perhaps the metabolizing process of Aether through Matter does this and takes a weak cellular force and converts it into the stronger electromagnetic force. Thus, the analogy that Thornhill made to a game of tug of war, in regards to gravity and intergalactic interconnectedness, could be found in the conductivity of the Aether to various forces, including gravity. The daisy chain then becomes focused, not on matter solely, but the cellular networks in the Aether, as well.
Once a person gets over trying to make the Aether material, the theory is digestible. Plus, the idea of non-locality and superposition becomes less “spooky”, as Einstein put it.
In any case, this was my thought, inspired by others. What are your thoughts and theories?

:)

Bengt Nyman
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by Bengt Nyman » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:53 am

Once you accept the mechanism of coulomb strong force, a powerful computer and millions of combating coulomb forces will show you the mechanism behind coulomb weak force, or gravity.

Bengt Nyman
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by Bengt Nyman » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:19 am

When it comes to the big questions, including gravity, there is more money in looking for an answer than in having one.

Bengt Nyman

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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by upriver » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:49 pm

Bengt Nyman wrote:Once you accept the mechanism of coulomb strong force, a powerful computer and millions of combating coulomb forces will show you the mechanism behind coulomb weak force, or gravity.

So does the electrical Coulomb force have the same properties as gravity??
The electrical force can be shielded but gravity cannot. What is the difference between them?
How does that go with a Faraday cage?

Gravity is superluminal.
The electrical force is both superluminal and subluminial.

The only thing that affects wave speed is the medium. How does that work?

querious
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by querious » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:42 pm

upriver wrote:Gravity is superluminal.
The electrical force is both superluminal and subluminial.?
Hi upriver,
What evidence/experiment is there that shows either gravity or electric forces are superluminal?

Bengt Nyman
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by Bengt Nyman » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:50 am

upriver wrote: Coulomb force ... gravity ... shielded ... Faraday cage ... superluminal ... subluminial ... wave speed ... medium. How does that work?
I don't know. I believe that this guy is trying to:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... herical-sh
Most advances in science involves replacing oversimplified concepts with more detailed knowledge.
One such example is the concept of a field. A field describes one limited aspect of an observed effect, while obscuring and ignoring details about the cause.
Our lack of knowledge about the medium presently prevents us from understanding the intricacies of the transmission of electrical effects. The universe is said to hold on an average 10 baryons and 300 000 000 neutrinos per cubic meter. There are likely even more of the little electrical primaries that bunch together to make up the neutrinos, which probably bunch together to ... etc. Conclusion: Life is too short.

seasmith
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by seasmith » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:47 am

to ... etc. Conclusion: Life is too short. -Bengt
No kidding. I just lost 15 minutes trying to get through that web page...
;)

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... herical-sh


Happy New Years

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Zyxzevn
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by Zyxzevn » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:48 am

Bengt Nyman wrote:...see: http://www.dipole.se
This shows how dipoles create a force, but that is different from gravity.
The force on your website is similar to [the vanderwaals force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Waals_force).
Which typically has a 1/r^3 strength.
By stretching the series of dipoles, you get only a partial 1/r^2 strength,
which later becomes 1/r^3 on distances that we see in the solar system.
So this is not a solution that works with Newton's gravity.

The same is true magnetic variants, proposed by Tesla.

This is also different from the theory proposed by Thornhill. Actually, I don't think anyone on this forum
knows exactly what his exact ideas on gravity are now.
In other videos it appears that Thornhill sees gravity more as a consequence of very fast sub-atomic particles.
Possibly in relation with quantum physics.
He also describes static charges, not dipoles, as a force that can influence the paths of certain orbits.
For me it seems a possible replacement for dark matter, but this needs more research.
Also can electromagnetism have a small stabilizing effect on the paths of the planets and stars.

The Heisenberg relationship from Quantum physics already produces Newton's gravity (1/r^2).
It is independent of any interpretation of quantum physics.
I think Thornhill wants to translate that into a more electrical system.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

Bengt Nyman
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by Bengt Nyman » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:49 am

Zyxzevn wrote: ...
You missed the major point. The electric engine of a hydrogen dipole carries 9.000*10^19 more energy, or charge, than it needs to produce gravity. And we (you) have no idea how it shares this energy with the rest of the world.
Dismissing the new because it does not fit misconceptions from the past is a fools way.

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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by willendure » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:13 pm

Zyxzevn wrote: The Heisenberg relationship from Quantum physics already produces Newton's gravity (1/r^2).
Indeed:

http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.co.u ... lmost.html

Bengt Nyman
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by Bengt Nyman » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:43 am

Zyxzevn wrote: The force on your website is similar to [the vanderwaals force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Waals_force).
Which typically has a 1/r^3 strength.
Van der Walls shows 1/r^3 is because it is the vector form of Coulombs law:
When you vectorize Coulomb's Law you use position and force vectors instead of scalar quantities. You express the location of charge q as rq, and the location of charge Q as rQ. In this way you know both how strong the electric force is on a charge, but also what direction that force is directed in. Coulomb's Law using vectors is written as:

F = KqQ(rq-rQ)/(rq-rQ)^3
r = rq-rQ
r = /r/
F = KqQ*r/r^3

This does not mean that the strength of the individual coulomb force vectors themselves suddenly follow a new law. They are still a function of 1/r^2 but the composite is multiplied by r/r.
When the moon is overhead the tide rises, not because earth gravity on water suddenly follows 1/r^3, but because there is a competing vector 1/(r2)^2 altering the compound effect without altering individual coulomb force vectors.

querious
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Re: Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

Unread post by querious » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:56 pm

Bengt Nyman wrote:Van der Walls shows 1/r^3 is because it is the vector form of Coulombs law:
No, it's 1/r^3 simply because the farther you get from a dipole, the more the dipole is seen as neutral (no net charge) overall.

When you finally manage to get that simple concept through your head, even you will see that dipole gravity doesn't work.

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