Flux Ropes in the Solar Wind

[upriver]

[seasmith]

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Explanation please

s

[upriver]

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Explanation please

s

Well its an observation from the TRACE archive at 171nm.

The standard explanation is that it is from the chromosphere because of the temp.

I think its from under the photosphere of the metallic surface. Cathode phenomena.

What is it? A Twisted pair of flux tubes that go a short distance?

[seasmith]

Braided edge on hole where current penetrates surface ?


http://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/imag ... e_edge.jpg


http://www.esa.int/spaceinimages/Images ... n_the_edge

[Solar]

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Explanation please

s

Well its an observation from the TRACE archive at 171nm.

The standard explanation is that it is from the chromosphere because of the temp.

I think its from under the photosphere of the metallic surface. Cathode phenomena.

What is it? A Twisted pair of flux tubes that go a short distance?

The nearest analogy is ‘cathode arcs’ excited into discharge from a ‘layer’ of the Sun’s relative ‘surface’. See:

Fig. 20: Luminous sheath at the cathode as a precursor to spot formation in high pressure discharges. - Properties of Arc Cathode Spots: B. Jiittner, J. PHYS IV FRANCE 7 (1 997)

Phenomena seen subsequent to the initial 'spark' (‘cathode arc’) - here referred to as the "luminous sheath" - such as “solar rain” then correspond to “cathode fragments” that would normally leave “cathode spots” and deposits along the lines of “cathode erosion”.

If one then utilizes the Liquid Metallic Sun as put forth by Pierre-Marie Robitaille - instead of “cathode erosion” leaving behind a “spot” , such a ‘liquid-like phase’ would see the “cathode spot” eventually ‘close’ behind the ‘arc’ discharges. Needless to say the relative 'surface' in this case is a double-layer perpendicular to the filament axis.

In conjunction with this, and along the line of reasoning electric currents intersecting perpendicular to a ‘liquid-like surface’, unwind the electric filament and the analogous “cathode arc” (CME) becomes comparable to an ‘arc’ traveling along the length of the two rods of a Jacob’s Ladder. Instead of air being ionized consider the material of the double-layer 'surface' instead.

Replace the two straight rods of the Jacob’s Ladder with the serpentine nature of an electric filament with material spiraling around "magnetic lines of force" . The ionized material initially arching at the base (the bright spark of a solar flare) will then travel along the ladder's length forming an ever widening filament and present filamentary electric discharge phenomena or "Flux ropes in the Solar wind".

With the Sun, the scale of this is so large it is easy to overlook. In the following imagery, the observer, is standing at the footprint of the very beginnings of the ‘cathode arc’ that will travel along the serpentine length of Jacob’s Ladder where physicist simply see the movement of ‘magnetic clouds’:

NASA | Fiery Looping Rain on the Sun

The larger scale:

NASA | Magnificent Eruption in Full HD

[celeste]

What I see in the inset, is the full circling of charged material up and out of the sun, and back below the surface.
Charles stated "magnetic fields cannot deflect the current back into the Sun, going against the electric field."
That is not what we are doing here. If the surface of the sun is a layer of charged material, where this layer is established by the balance of gravitational and electrostatic forces, then we don't have magnetic forces returning the current to the sun. Magnetic forces here are merely deflecting charged material up and down through the layer where these charged particles "want to be".

[upriver]

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Explanation please

s

Well its an observation from the TRACE archive at 171nm.

The standard explanation is that it is from the chromosphere because of the temp.

I think its from under the photosphere of the metallic surface. Cathode phenomena.

What is it? A Twisted pair of flux tubes that go a short distance?

The nearest analogy is ‘cathode arcs’ excited into discharge from a ‘layer’ of the Sun’s relative ‘surface’. See:

Fig. 20: Luminous sheath at the cathode as a precursor to spot formation in high pressure discharges. - Properties of Arc Cathode Spots: B. Jiittner, J. PHYS IV FRANCE 7 (1 997)

Phenomena seen subsequent to the initial 'spark' (‘cathode arc’) - here referred to as the "luminous sheath" - such as “solar rain” then correspond to “cathode fragments” that would normally leave “cathode spots” and deposits along the lines of “cathode erosion”.

If one then utilizes the Liquid Metallic Sun as put forth by Pierre-Marie Robitaille - instead of “cathode erosion” leaving behind a “spot” , such a ‘liquid-like phase’ would see the “cathode spot” eventually ‘close’ behind the ‘arc’ discharges. Needless to say the relative 'surface' in this case is a double-layer perpendicular to the filament axis.

In conjunction with this, and along the line of reasoning electric currents intersecting perpendicular to a ‘liquid-like surface’, unwind the electric filament and the analogous “cathode arc” (CME) becomes comparable to an ‘arc’ traveling along the length of the two rods of a Jacob’s Ladder. Instead of air being ionized consider the material of the double-layer 'surface' instead.

Replace the two straight rods of the Jacob’s Ladder with the serpentine nature of an electric filament with material spiraling around "magnetic lines of force" . The ionized material initially arching at the base (the bright spark of a solar flare) will then travel along the ladder's length forming an ever widening filament and present filamentary electric discharge phenomena or "Flux ropes in the Solar wind".

Or as I have said before in this thread, a rail gun using longitudinal forces.

Nobody has explained why we use Ionized iron light to view the sun vs Pierres liquid model....... Where does it come from?

[CharlesChandler]

In conjunction with this, and along the line of reasoning electric currents intersecting perpendicular to a ‘liquid-like surface’, unwind the electric filament and the analogous “cathode arc” (CME) becomes comparable to an ‘arc’ traveling along the length of the two rods of a Jacob’s Ladder. Instead of air being ionized consider the material of the double-layer 'surface' instead.

I don't see the correlation between CMEs (caused by solar flares) and cathode spots.

Cathode spots can only be produced by solid electrodes. If the voltage is sufficient, the corona discharge graduates to an arc discharge. But the entire cathode does not go into arc mode right away. Rather, whichever point on the electrode has the most potential goes into arc mode. This discharges the potential at that point. Then the cathode spot starts racing around the surface of the electrode, lured away from its current position because all of the potential has been discharged, while there are greater potentials elsewhere. Assuming that the amps are regulated, this can produce a cathode spot that is sustained in shape, if not in location on the electrode.

On the other hand, solar flares are instantaneous discharges from one point to another, on or below the surface. And the surface is already in arc mode. A cathode spot is not an arc from one point on the solid electrode to another, which would be quite impossible. Nor do cathode spots occur after the entire electrode has gone into arc mode. The spot is an arc discharge surrounded by corona discharges, and where the current is from the electrode, though the plasma, and toward the opposite electrode.

This reveals the key question of solar flares: what creates the potential for a discharge, within the near perfect conductivity of 6000 K plasma, and which is already in arc mode? The only thing that can separate charges in the absence of electrical resistance is the magnetic force. So are there powerful magnetic fields in the vicinity of sunspots? Yes. Do they go away just before the flare? Yes. So the magnetic fields were keeping opposite charges separated, but when they go away, the charges are allowed to recombine, hence the discharge.

Nobody has explained why we use Ionized iron light to view the sun vs Pierres liquid model....... Where does it come from?

In sunspots, there is a negative charge stream coming up through the sunspot shaft. Positive ions are attracted to this negative charge stream, but their motion toward it is impeded by having to cross magnetic lines of force associated with the sunspot. In the following image, the net flow of electrons (I) is upward, though it spirals as it goes because it is moving within a larger magnetic field (not shown) that is perpendicular to the surface, and thus it becomes a Birkeland current. For reasons described earlier, the current density relaxes when it passes through the photosphere, and the current's own magnetic field lines (B) close locally, producing the observable solenoidal field. This means that +ions moving toward the negative charge stream due to the electric force (E) are impeded by the perpendicular magnetic field. This preserves a charge separation, at least up to a point. If the E-field gets to be too strong, or if the B-field relaxes, the charges can recombine, causing a flare.

http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Images/C ... ut_wbg.png

That being the case, we can expect this magnetic charge separation mechanism to cause a lateral stratification of charges, where the most highly ionized atoms experience the greatest attraction to the negative charge stream, and weaker ions are pushed out of the way. And which atoms, of those present in the photosphere, are capable of the highest degree of ionization? That, of course, would be the iron. So even though there "should be" only 1 iron atom for every 30,000 hydrogen atoms in the photosphere, there is a great concentration of them around sunspots, and in CMEs.

BTW, the iron atoms also reveal that the net charge of the Sun is negative, in that the +ions in CMEs return to the Sun in coronal rain, sometimes at relativistic velocities. That these atoms are highly charged is evidenced not just by the spectral lines that they emit, but also by their ballistics. These heavy atoms should be the most likely to continue away from the Sun, having the most momentum. Yet they are stripped out of the CMEs and pulled forcefully back into the Sun. And rather than getting pulled straight inward, as if by gravity, they follow magnetic field lines. So they are definitely charged. And the charge is definitely positive. (Fe XV is not an electron -- it's an atom. ) So the net charge of the Sun at the surface is definitely negative, wherein +ions are pulled inward, and electrons are pushed outward. And that, of course, is consistent with all of the other evidence. CMEs are mainly +ions, while the steady-state flux is mainly electrons away from the Sun. Taken individually, neither of these facts make sense, but taken together, they make perfect sense. The photosphere is not quasi-neutral -- it is positively charged, and CMEs represent a net loss of +ions, generating the potential that drives the electrons out of the Sun.

[Maol]

Cathode spots can only be produced by solid electrodes. If the voltage is sufficient, the corona discharge graduates to an arc discharge. But the entire cathode does not go into arc mode right away. Rather, whichever point on the electrode has the most potential goes into arc mode. This discharges the potential at that point. Then the cathode spot starts racing around the surface of the electrode, lured away from its current position because all of the potential has been discharged, while there are greater potentials elsewhere. Assuming that the amps are regulated, this can produce a cathode spot that is sustained in shape, if not in location on the electrode.

Charles, if the subject here was the arc behavior in the gap of a sparkplug in an internal combustion engine, your description is spot on. In a sparkplug gap ionization must be established by the voltage rising to that required to ionize the gap but in the Sun the plasma is extant.

When the arc is established in the plug gap and a plasma forms, the motion of the combustion gasses in the vicinity of the spark plug carries the ionized gas (with the arc) out of the gap and the arc follows the path of least resistance to ground somewhere other than the side electrode, to the plug shell or the piston top, or wherever the flow of ions takes it.

Other than the scale, photography of ignition arcs in running engines is remarkably similar to the solar pictures in this discussion.

[seasmith]

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Cathode Spots ?



http://ej.iop.org/images/0963-0252/22/2 ... online.jpg

[CharlesChandler]

Cathode Spots ?

IMO, sunspots are a bit like cathode spots. The Sun is definitely a cathode, and there is an enhanced current inside the sunspot (though the current density relaxes as it passes through the photosphere). We can measure the current below the photosphere indirectly, by the ohmic heating that it causes, which affects wave transmission speeds. In the following image, red is hotter, and blue is cooler. The distance from the surface down to the top of the red sunspot shaft is 4800 km, which is the depth of the layer of granules covering the surface. The cooler umbra at the surface results from there being less current there -- all of the current is spiraling around the B-field lines, which are perpendicular to the surface there. So it's a Birkeland current, with a diameter equaling that of the sunspot itself. Notice also that the outward splaying has already begin at the top of the shaft, as explained in a previous post.

Kosovichev, A. G. et al., 2011: Local helioseismology of sunspot regions: Comparison of ring-diagram and time-distance results. Journal of Physics: Conference Series, 271 (1): 012005



But to be picky about it, if a cathode spot is an arc discharge surrounded by a glow discharge, and if the entire Sun is in arc mode, then sunspots are spots within spots, so to say. It's an enhanced current within an existing arc discharge. A cathode spot on steroids maybe. Anyway, the enhanced current is the product of the Sun's magnetic field lines being perpendicular to the surface, which enables the currents. Where the Sun's B-field is parallel to the surface, the outward flow of a current is impeded by having the cross B-field lines.

[seasmith]

Charles wrote:
Where the Sun's B-field is parallel to the surface, the outward flow of a current is impeded by having the cross B-field lines.

It may not be that simple.
Note in linked time-lapse video, where so-called "temperature" maps (at different sampling frequencies) are merged,
to portray a purported heat-depth map of Sol's multi-layer 'atmosphere':

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/gallery/ ... 4_best.mov



The current detection methods don't seem able to determining wether dark vs. light areas on the the final composite image signify just temperature, depth, cation/anion flows, photonic emissions spectra, or some/all the above.


http://soho.nascom.nasa.gov/classroom/g ... iddle.html

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/gallery/ ... spots.html



∞

[CharlesChandler]

The current detection methods don't seem able to determining wether dark vs. light areas on the the final composite image signify just temperature, depth, cation/anion flows, photonic emissions spectra, or some/all the above.

That's their problem, not mine. They can't make sense of the data, because in their model, there is a simple stratification of temperature, from 6000 K in the photosphere (because that's the black-body temperature) to over 1 MK in the corona (on the basis of spectral lines). Then they just map all indications of temperature to the appropriate altitude on the basis of that scale. After all, in thermodynamics, temperature anomalies don't last long, due to convection and/or conduction. But that model is fraught with difficulties right from the outset. First, we can tell from imagery on the limb roughly where the coronal features intersect with the photosphere, and a lot of that iron is in the photosphere, where it doesn't belong. Second, Fe XV is typically estimated to be over 2 MK, which doesn't belong anywhere if the temperature is consistently stratified, since the corona peaks at just a little over 1 MK. So what is 2 MK iron doing in the corona at all, much less down in the photosphere, swimming in a soup of hydrogen running at only 6000 K? You're not going to get an answer to that out of the mainstream. All you're going to get is dodgy dismissals of any conclusions drawn from the data.

But like I said, that's their problem, not mine. Comparing temperatures estimated by black-body curves to temperatures estimated by spectral emissions is apples-n-oranges anyway. And that would be if they have a physical model of black-body radiation, which they don't. So it's an abstract apple compared to an orange. And then, they have a naive interpretation of spectral emissions, correctly noting that the lines correspond to the degree of ionization, but incorrectly thinking that temperature is the only thing that can cause ionization. Powerful electric fields, and electron drag, can also ionize atoms. So it's an abstract apple compared to an incorrectly measured orange, and (go figure) they don't match.

So I just take all of the data together, and what one dataset doesn't tell me, I get from another, knowing that all of the data came from the same Sun. And there is no mistaking that the solar moss, and the footpoints of the coronal loops, are below the surface of the photosphere, where there are massive concentrations of Fe XV. If that doesn't make sense in thermodynamic terms, then there is more to it than just thermodynamics. It doesn't mean that I'm going to cling to a thermodynamic model, and start dismissing data when it doesn't fit.

[celeste]

Will anyone verify that in this GIF
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... rface.html
The flaring does not seem to be occurring along the length of the flare all at once? The flaring starts a specific height above the sun,and "lingers" there for a second or two (at the base of what will become that detached flare)?

It even looks (in the last few seconds),that it is lines of fixed contour that are flaring?

[CharlesChandler]

I wouldn't call that flaring -- that looks like coronal loops, though the flashes are in a very unusual form. The arcade in the background at the far left is more typical. I can't make out what's going on, but the surface is well defined by the solar moss between the active regions, so everything above that is in the corona.