Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Stefan,
Sorry for the delay in responding to your epic post but I have been reading Bacon's Fables of the Ancients. (Which can be found here:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Jl4A ... les+of+the+
Ancients+%E2%80%93+Francis+Bacon&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&sa
=X&oi=book_result&resnum=11&ct=result#PPP13,M1 and can be downloaded in pdf).

Very, very interesting little book. It's relevance to this thread is contained in its introduction a few of the of the interpretations. The majority of the interpretations are concerned with Elizabethan politics (the age of Gunpowder, Treason and Plot).

I enjoyed his digs at chemists, i.e. those who think they are doing alchemy by torturing chemicals in flasks, those who call themselves alchemists but talk of the Philosopher's Stone as being soemthing one can see and hold, and Aristotle for being pedantic, dogmatic and
basically boring.

The tales which have stuck in my mind are Creation, Prometheus, Proserpine, Pan, Orpheus and Dionysos. I didn't necessarily agree with them but they all set me to thinking which is never a bad thing. In fact, I certainly disagree with Bacon's interpretation of Dionysos and
possibly Prometheus and Orpheus. I'd have to read these again as there are generally levels within levels with Bacon.

The Huxley passage was interesting though I haven't read anything by him as he is a bit too modern for me.
You and I have discussed the merits of Pico in the past and agree that he is always worth listening to. I was not aware of the Heptaplus but will put it on my reading list as it looks very interesting.
We have also discussed the Neo-Platonists. I was a bit confused about the Plotinus passage. It mentions Plotinus' name in the passage yet you have cited it as being from his Enneads. Is it from a commentary on the Enneads?

Your selection of authors lends weight to my contention that this Ancient Wisdom or Perennial Philosophy is and always has been around if one cares to find it. One of my major annoyances with modern scholars and academics is that they are either too stupid to see it or they see
it and ignore it, i.e. they are lying. Similarly with the so-called independent researchers and authors who claim this knowledge for their own.

[Solar]

Francis Bacon (1561-1626):

It is true, fables in general are composed of ductile matter, that may be drawn into great variety, by a witty talent, or an invetive genius: and be delivered of plausible meanings which they never contained. But this procedure has already been carried to excess: and great numbers, to procure the sanction of antiquity to their own notions and invertions, have miserably wrested and abused the fables of the ancients.
Nor is this only of late or unfrequent practise; but of ancient date, and common, even to this day.
...
And though I have well weighted and considered all this; and thoroughly seen into the levity which the mind indulges for allegories and allusions; yet I cannot but retain a high value for the ancient mythology.
...
Upon deliberate consideration, my judgement is, that a concealed instruction and allegory was originally intended in many of the ancient fables. This opinion may, in some respect, be owing to the veneration I have for antiquity; but more to observing, that some fables discover a great and evident similitude, relation and connection with the thing they signify; as well in the structure of the fable; as in the propriety of the names, whereby the persons or actors are characterized: insomuch, that no one could positively deny a sense and meaning...
...

The like indeed has been attempted by others; but to speak ingeniously, their great and voluminous labours have almost destroyed the energy, the eeficacy, and grace of the thing, whilst being unskilled in nature, and their learning no morethan that of common-place, they have applied the sense of the parables to certain general and vulgar matters, without reaching to their real purport, genuine interpretation, and full depth.
(From: Fables of the Ancients – Francis Bacon)

I don't see any significance difference between what Bacon has stated above and at least one of the points Grey Cloud is making. It is a good point indeed in my humble opinion to give such things consideration as these aspects of life have had their place in humanity for length of time far in excess of the modern era's "enlightment". Bacon even acknowledges that in his day the same character of "voluminous labours" existed.

[Grey Cloud]

Some afterthoughts and a little historical perspective.
The Elizabethan era was when England became a nation. In large part this was due to us finding ourselves at odds with the world's largest empire - the Catholic Church. (A situation not dissimilar to that of the Greeks when they took on the Persian empire (and won)).
It was the time of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation and also the Renaissance.
Bacon was a Renaissance man and I would suggest that he could see the Renaissance being crushed between the reactionary Catholic Church and the fanatical Puritans.

It was a period when it was very easy to lose ones liberty or ones head, hence one had to be careful of what one wrote and how one wrote it.

In this little book Bacon is laying out his humanist politics and ethics. The only metaphysics is in the first interpretaion, i.e. Coelum (Ouronos). None of the subsequent interpretations follow on logically from this intitial one, and none of them are interpreted metaphysically.
I would further suggest that not is this a deliberate ploy but that he knows that his interpretations are not the true or correct interpretations (as per the Ancient Wisdom or Perennial Philosophy). He is telling the reader this in the introduction:

Many may imagine that I am here entering upon a work of fancy, or amusement; and design to use a poetical liberty, in explaining poetical fables. It is true, fables in general are composed of ductile matter, that may be drawn into great variety, by a witty talent, or an
inventive genius: and be delivered of plausible meanings which they never contained.
...
Upon deliberate consideration, my judgement is, that a concealed instruction and allegory was originally intended in many of the ancient fables.
...
Nor is it wonder, if sometimes a piece of history, or other things are introduced, by way of ornament; or if the times of the action are confounded; or if part of one fable be tacked to another; or if the allegory be new turned: for all this must necessarily happen; as the fables were the inventions of men who lived in different ages, and had different views; some of them being ancient, and others more modern; some having an eye to natural philosophy; and others,to morality, or civil polity.
...
Men have proposed to answer two different, and contrary ends, by the use of parable; for parables serve, as well to instruct or illustrate, as to wrap up and envelope: so that though for the present, we drop the concealed use, and suppose the ancient fables to be vague, undeterminate things, formed for amusement; still the other use must remain, and can never be given up. And every man, of any learning, must readily allow, that this method of instucting is grave, sober, or exceedingly useful;...
...
The like indeed has been attempted by others; but to speak ingeniously, their great and voluminous labours have almost destroyed the energy, the efficacy, and grace of the thing, whilst being unskilled in nature, and their learning no more than that of common-place, they have applied the sense of the parables to certain general and vulgar matters, without reaching to their real purport, genuine interpretation, and full depth. For myself, therefore, I expect to appear new in these common things; because, leaving untouched such as are sufficiently plain, and open, I shall drive only at those that are either deep or rich.

The politics he advocates is, in essence, the antithesis of Machiavelli's The Prince. His politics and ethics are Greek, they are those of Homer and Plato. Even where science and / or the arts are mentioned in his interpretations they are generally tied to either politics or ethics.

There is another reason for Bacon's method and that is related to learning in general and learning about the AW/PP in particular. The knowledge come from the reader not from the writer, or, as I put it in a previous post, the writer provides grist for the mill but it is up to
the reader to provide the mill. And he does a good job here too as I learned a lot from these mythological tales even though I didn't subscribe to his interpretations as such.
As I said, just some afterthoughts. Most definitely not meant to be the last word on anything.

[Solar]

Another thought for consideration. In reference to an idea put forth earlier; I would also agree that myth, allegory, "fables" (and lets not forget archetypes) do have internal consistency. Just as comparative mythology unquestionably reveals several layers of consistency contained in myth across diverse cultures it would seem to imply that there must exist internal consistency for the "local" version.

As was stated these had been "... modulated by them into sounds more sweet, more harmonious, and more conformable to the climate and to their brilliant imagination." Meaning each culture kept the tenants of the central core yet the teachings were "modulated" to be amenable to the particular culture. That would more than likely include expression of some aspects of those central themes through the idioms unique to each "climate".

One of the aspects that would appear to cause the idea or notion that there isn't such consistency would probably be an unfamiliarity with the idioms of the culture during a particular timeframe. Let alone those aspects of The Mysteries that have for so long eluded the strictly rational and intellectual purview.

Consider the Eleusinian Mysteries. The “rites” therein are generally considered as having persisted for well over a thousand years. That would more than aptly suggest the exposure of multiples of thousands into the experiential language, of symbol, glyph, metaphor, and myth. Yet, to this very day; no one is quite sure of what exactly went on within those temples there! The same with The Mithraic Mysteries , The Mysteries of Isis, The Mysteries of Samothrace , Dionysus; on and on it goes.

Without the inclusion of these one arrives at a systematic degradation of a 'science' of knowledge, experience, and understanding that has permeated humanity for as far back as modern historians can see, and beyond that even, through these means (The Mysteries, The Ancient Wisdom, Perennial Philosophy). Hear the words of Cicero with regard to a “branch” of That Great World Tree known as The Eleusinian Mysteries:

For among the many excellent and indeed divine institutions which your Athens has brought forth and contributed to human life, none, in my opinion, is better than those mysteries. For by their means we have been brought out of our barbarous and savage mode of life and educated and refined to a state of civilization; and as the rites are called "initiations," so in very truth we have learned from them the beginnings of life, and have gained the power not only to live happily, but also to die with a better hope.

Results along "The Path"! Listen to his words and see in them “The Great Work”, which does not end with the “evolutionary” height to which Cicero refers. “Civilization(s)”, the ability to be 'civil' *may* not haphazardly “evolve” out of the random chaos of barbarism. Great people have been associated with “Mystery Schools”. Napoleon, Newton (a known Alchemist), Plato, Socrates, DaVinci any number of Kings, Queens, and Pharaohs throughout antiquity and across many cultures. These and others have had dramatic influences on mankind's rational and intellectual development. Yet, no spark of curiosity seems to appear with regard to the "Mystery Schools" from which the symbols, glyphs, allegories, and myths originated -that each one of them has been associated with.

It seems one would think that to be more than coincidence.

[StefanR]

OK, let me try to answer your posts one by one, as you are moving a little ahead of me

Very, very interesting little book. It's relevance to this thread is contained in its introduction a few of the of the interpretations. The majority of the interpretations are concerned with Elizabethan politics (the age of Gunpowder, Treason and Plot). ......
.......In fact, I certainly disagree with Bacon's interpretation of Dionysos and
possibly Prometheus and Orpheus. I'd have to read these again as there are generally levels within levels with Bacon

Yes , you might be quite right in your conclusions. I agree that the interpretations are somewhat odd at times, but it is the introduction that is of the main signifigance, like you say.

The Huxley passage was interesting though

Huxley is indeed a bit modern, and I can understand your reluctance to get into moderns, which I share to a degree, but sometimes exeptions have to be made. In this case, I can recommend this book of his as it is most charming, citing sources that are not usually used and it can give some good comparisons of similar concepts in different cultures, without shoving an opinion down ones throat.

Is it from a commentary on the Enneads?

My apologies, the makup of the post was a little below standard level. The top most quote of the Plotinus bit, was indeed from the preface of the Enneads. All of the quotes are open source so they should not be hard to find. As for the Pico material. That is from a little book I have of him, containing Heptaplus, under the name of "On the dignity of Man". Most enjoyable, for westerners I think its a fun read, especially Heptaplus, as most of them are familiar, one way or another, with the Mosaic creationstory. The systematic approach and the methodical exercition thereof is highly amusing and informative.

[StefanR]

It is a good point indeed in my humble opinion to give such things consideration as these aspects of life have had their place in humanity for length of time far in excess of the modern era's "enlightment". Bacon even acknowledges that in his day the same character of "voluminous labours" existed.

Indeed, as long as these texts and stories are continued, the talking and commenting upon these will naturaly accompany them. Which in a sense is what has always been the intention. Only when one loses out of sight the intention, or there is an ignorance of the intention, deviations can be multitude.

[nick c]

Hello Grey Cloud,

I still maintain that, e.g. Greek myth or the Vedic literature is a coherent body of knowledge. That is each part is inherently intelligible in and of itself and that the individual parts fit into
the whole coherently and intelligibly. Whether we moderns can understand all the elements is different kettle of fish entirely.

I don't have a problem with that. I especially agree with the last sentence.

Borrowing your analogy of the detective, surely a good detective follows all the leads no matter how irrelevant they may appear?

Yes, but too much attention to detail can obscure the big picture. To paraphrase R. Buckminster Fuller, the key to problem solving lies in the dismissal of irrelevencies. The forensic type of analysis follows the evidence. The evaluation must draw on whatever field of study applies to the situation.
It must remembered that the catastrophic analysis is not restricted to the study of mythology, but is interdisciplinary, relying on other diverse disciplines of study. The message of catastrophes in myth must be taken in context of evidence in other fields. That Venus is either a new member or had a recent destructive history in the solar system is supported by space age measurements and observations of that planet. So, debating whether or not a specific detail of a myth supports the conclusion that Venus is a new planet (or not) is of little consequence, if in the end it turns out that astronomical analysis of the planet yields a conclusion that it is indeed new and recently formed. Furthermore, if a story of natural calamities encompassing the globe, can be extracted from the body of myth, then there should be evidence from archaeological excavations. As an example, the work of [url2=http://archaeology.about.com/od/sterms/ ... fercfa.htm]Claude Schaeffer[/url2], a leading archaeologist of the 20th C, who conducted extensive digs in the mid east at Ras Shamra/Ugarit and his book Stratigraphie Comparee (1948), concluded that there were several simultaneous destructions by earthquake and fire of numerous excavated sites through out the ancient mediteranean and near east. These conclusions were reached before the author ever became of aware of Velikovsky's work, Schaeffer did not offer any speculation as to what natural forces were the cause of the destruction. Schaeffer had no interest in catastrophism, but came to that conclusion as a result of his excavations. Later, Schaeffer became convinced that several global catastrophes took place in ancient times and read Worlds In Collision, he wrote to Velikovsky:

You are working in the right direction and time will help to show the reality of global or near-global catastrophes. Already continental or near-continental catastrophes cannot be doubted as I showed by my stratigraphical work in the Near East.
http://www.varchive.org/cor/schaeffer/560723sv.htm

There is physical evidence to be integrated with eyewitness testimony. The physical evidence lends credence to the supposition that there is mythological (as well as textual) evidence of planetary catastrophism.
Although the physical evidence is not the topic of this thread, it is supportive of narratives (such as those on Typhon) passed down in ancient texts.

nick c

[StefanR]

The politics he advocates is, in essence, the antithesis of Machiavelli's The Prince. His politics and ethics are Greek, they are those of Homer and Plato. Even where science and / or the arts are mentioned in his interpretations they are generally tied to either politics or ethics.

I think you are quite right. Like you mentioned about the Elizabethan era, it was a time, and England the place, Where a certain "occult"-ness had to be made to indicate or mention certain matters. It is in a certain historical way interesting to compare that situation with the era and location of Pico de Mirandola, who like Bacon moved in certain circles. And to make some connections. Pico was a friend of Lorenzo de Medici and Marcilino Ficino The same works translated by Ficino were studied by a man like John Dee, the same John Dee well known by Francis Bacon. In that sense, some "double speak" will certainly present and it can also serve as an example as how even interpretations of myths and fables can have concealed intentions/purposes

There is another reason for Bacon's method and that is related to learning in general and learning about the AW/PP in particular. The knowledge come from the reader not from the writer, or, as I put it in a previous post, the writer provides grist for the mill but it is up to
the reader to provide the mill. And he does a good job here too as I learned a lot from these mythological tales even though I didn't subscribe to his interpretations as such.

Yes, as with your mill, usually the author in that time had a certain audience in mind, in a certain way like in the ancient times ,the information transmitted was on an able-to-know basis. And I dare to say they were very clever at that.

[webolife]

Dare I insert here that "able to know" has much to do with Faith?

[StefanR]

Dare I insert here that "able to know" has much to do with Faith?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Faith'.


In the ability to know in the Baconian-era (and a little preceding and posterior to that) I see more, the fact that in that period, as GreyCloud pointed out, some things were better not spoken of. Dogma and ignorance can show a violent reaction, and display itself aggressively against any information or ideas that is undermining the dogma itself or making people become more free thinking and independent of the authority that has based its power on it. In those days (and maybe at any time) often the liberating ideas did not have the freedom to be proclaimed or passed on and shared without inviting troubles.
Then as well as now, a certain disposition is needed to get in contact with those ideas. Not only does one need the time and resources to get to an understanding, in that sense the sociological standing of a person can be of importance, for if I have to struggle every day to merely survive, what time and energy is left to ponder.
Aside from that, education will play a definitive role as well, for how differently information is transmitted verbally or by books. And although both are needed, each has an role in education which is distinct and different.
So a man like Bacon could transmit certain ideas to his peers, hidden in plain sight to those ignorant and knowledgable for those who knew how to approach the matter and were familiar with the purpose of the discourse.
Herein lies a certain reflection of how allegories were used in ancient times. As with the Mysteries Solar mentioned, they 'profane' got some of it conducive to that 'level', Initiates got to learn in the Lesser Mysteries that things were different than commonly understood, and after that, if competent, one could in the Higher Mysteries, learn about Reality free from dogma and beyond comprehension. But this is not meant to be understood religiously, but scientifically and philosophically.
Relating that to the able-to-know, imagine in those days the perfomance theatrically of those myths or allegories, and how each level of education/initiation experiences differently that what transpires on the stage.

Or let me add again some d'Olivet from the Secret lore of Music to give a ceratin impression;

No science is invented. It is a gift that the human spirit makes to humanity by means of one of its inspirational faculties. Any inspired science descends in principle, enveloped in its spiritual germ, unformed and feeble in its first elements but containing in itself all its developments in potentiality. the first men who receive it have scarcely the dimmest knowledge of it. many of them do not perceive it at all, and die without hvaing known this treasure that they were nurturing in their bosom. from others, however, it gives out a dim light. generations succeed each other while it develops in silence, grows and spreads in the heart of a nation. then a few men more fortunately constituted than others distinguish themselves, and their succces awaken the attention of their contemporaries. A new career begins. Love of glory, o honors, of riches, according to the type of science, inflame the heart and now serve it as vehicle. A noble emulation impels a thousand rivals, excites them to surpass one another, and hastens its progress all the more since it was originally so slow. Finally a man of genius appears; his searching glance takes in the science in its entirety; he sees in an instant what it has been, what it is, what it might be. Boldly he takes possession of it, and uniting ina single sheaf its different branches, he gives them a new form. in his conquering might he forces the divine inspiration, hitherto dissipated, to concentrate itself on him alone, and reflecting it as on a single focused point he eclipses all that preceded him, enlightens all who come after him, and leaves his successors no hope but that of imitation. Such a man possesses the primary inspiration, in whatever genre. He dominates the science, but he has neither created nor invented it.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Solar,
The Mystery Schools are one of my favourite sub-topics in this area, not least because they serve as a great exemplar of how clueless modern academics are with regard to the ancients.
Below are a few links from my Favourites folder:
This one is useful because it mentions different academic theories and arguments. Notice the amount of speculation involved, largely because they are clueless about any underlying philosophy behind the Mysteries.
Compare what Demeter does to Demophon and the lesser known story of what Themis did to Achilles in order to make him immortal - all these scholars appear to miss the similarity.
Eleusinian Mysteries
http://www.uwec.edu/philrel/faculty/bea ... eusis.html

The words of Thomas Taylor ('the English Platonist') are more important here than the breathless prose of Kingsford.
2. THE HERMETIC FRAGMENT KORÉ KOSMOU THE VIRGIN OF THE WORLD
http://www.anna-kingsford.com/english/W ... 02-web.htm

I've not really read this site properly but it is a useful source of ancient writers on the subject.
Welcome to the Eleusinian Mysteries
http://eleusinianmysteries.org/

Here is Manly P. Halls interpretation of the Mysteries, written in the 1920s when he was in his twenties.
The Ancient Mysteries and Secret Societies Which Have Influenced Modern Masonic Symbolism
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta04.htm

The Ancient Mysteries and Secret Societies Part Two
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta05.htm

The Ancient Mysteries and Secret Societies Part Three
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta06.htm

More rampant speculation though with an excellent set of images. I'm not an expert on female Roman attire but the lady in 'Scene 1' looks to be dressed like a mature or married woman rather than a girl or maiden. These mysteries were not for youths but for mature and intelligent adults and they were by invitation only. Notice the thyrsus and pine needles mentioned. The thyrsus is always topped by a pine cone. The pine needles and the pine cone are, to me, symbolic of the pineal gland.
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii
http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/time ... eries.html

This one is interesting as it is at least suggestive of there being an underlying philosophy behind these 'cults' and that the philosophy is common to more than one culture.
Dionysus and Kataragama: Parallel Mystery Cults
http://www.xlweb.com/heritage/skanda/dionysus.htm#Shiva

These links concerning Mithraism are to illustrate that the experts are clueless about the Mysteries in general and not just the Eleusinian School.
Mithraism
http://ecole.evansville.edu/articles/mithraism.html
Ulansey used to be a mainstream academic but appears to have jumped on the New Age bandwagon. Compare his 'groundbreaking' insights from the 1970s, 80s and 90s with Halls writings of half a century earlier.
The Cosmic Mysteries of Mithras
http://www.well.com/user/davidu/mithras.html
David Ulansey
http://www.well.com/user/davidu/index.html

Mithraism
http://eawc.evansville.edu/essays/mithraism.htm

Mithras: literary references
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/

The "Mithras" Liturgy
http://www.hermetic.com/pgm/mithras-liturgy.html

A risible attempt from a UK university.
TEMPLE OF MITHRAS
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/mithras/text.htm

The entire story of the Derveni Papyrus is a scandal but the following links give a good illustration of the standard of scholarly thinking.
Notice the type of detail that they get bogged down in. They are more concerned with showing how clever they are than seeing any knowledge in the actual papyrus. The Bryn Mawr classics review is a useful resource.
The Derveni Papyrus: Cosmology, Theology and Interpretation
http://ndpr.nd.edu/review.cfm?id=7703

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2005/2005-01-27.html
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2006/2006-10-29.html
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2006/2006-11-02.html

Last but not least is a quote from the wiki article on the Eleusinian Mysteries which ties us back to Bacon:

In Shakespeare's The Tempest, the masque that Prospero conjures to celebrate the troth-pledging of Miranda and Ferdinand echoes the Eleusinian Mysteries, although it uses the Roman names for the deities involved - Ceres, Iris, Dis and others - instead of the Greek. It is interesting that a play which is so steeped in esoteric imagery from alchemy and hermeticism should draw on the Mysteries for its central masque sequence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries
Notice how the writer of the wiki piece finds it 'interesting' that the play is able to combine alchemy / hermeticism and the mysteries. Again, the author of the article is totally ignorant of any underlying philosphy to any of them - let alone one that is common to all three.
As an aside, on the sirbacon.org site, the author there interprets 'A Comedy of Errors' in light of the myth of Dionysos.

[Grey Cloud]

Compare the seven rungs of the ladder in Mithraism with the Descent of Inanna into the Underworld.

[Grey Cloud]

Another couple of links, this time on Orpheus:
This one is another useful roundup of the curent academic 'thinking' on the subject:
THE STUDY OF ORPHISM Stian Sundell Torjussen
http://uit.no/getfile.php?PageId=977&FileId=613 (c. 19 page pdf)

This one is from a Rosicrucian publication and is a good example of what a non-expert can come up with by doing a bit of reading and using their common sense:
Shedding Light on Some Orphic Gods
http://www.rosicrucian.org/publications ... oodart.pdf (4 page pdf)

Note the confusion and bewilderment of the academics over Orpheus and Dionysos and compare it to the logical and simple ideas outlined by Goodart.

[StefanR]

Thanks for the nice links. Something with the observer and the observed by Krishnamurti comes to mind

[webolife]

Dare I insert here that "able to know" has much to do with Faith?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Faith'.

In the ability to know in the Baconian-era (and a little preceding and posterior to that) I see more, the fact that in that period, as GreyCloud pointed out, some things were better not spoken of. Dogma and ignorance can show a violent reaction, and display itself aggressively against any information or ideas that is undermining the dogma itself or making people become more free thinking and independent of the authority that has based its power on it. In those days (and maybe at any time) often the liberating ideas did not have the freedom to be proclaimed or passed on and shared without inviting troubles.
Then as well as now, a certain disposition is needed to get in contact with those ideas. Not only does one need the time and resources to get to an understanding, in that sense the sociological standing of a person can be of importance, for if I have to struggle every day to merely survive, what time and energy is left to ponder.
Aside from that, education will play a definitive role as well, for how differently information is transmitted verbally or by books. And although both are needed, each has an role in education which is distinct and different.

In case you don't know or remember, I teach science and math at the secondary level.
You were referring to "access to knowledge" and sociological standing [literacy for example] as being "able to know". But I am referring to one's frame of reference. In Bacon's day and before, as also today, various legends, superstitions, paradigms, etc. predispose[d] a person to view the evidences around them in a particular light. Galileo, eg., was unable in all his novel views of gravity to disengage himself from the Aristotelian view of crystalline spherical orbs. How accurately the patterns of nature appear in any particular frame of reference is hard for one person to tell. I do not exclude myself from this problem, but try to resolve it as much as I can by looking into many different views, and challenging others to do the same. The EU is a powerful paradigm, but some around here extend this paradigm to discount anything having to do with gravitation as being invalid or worthless. "Gravitation-only" is worthy of criticism, but "there-is-no-gravity" is ludicrous. People espousing "rationalism" are also beset with its "naturalistic" bias toward the disavowal of "knowledge" that can be gained only by belief in the supernatural. Every person holds to some paradigm [ie exercises faith] in their pursuit of science, or presupposes some limitation to their understanding that assures they only "know in part."
Hence my signature line.