The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby viscount aero » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:38 am

Native wrote:@viscount aero, you wrote:
If spacetime is a real object that can be bent, curved, compressed, etc... this means it is a form of matter. So what is it? Is it a solid? No. It's transparent and massless, a void. You can travel through it. Is it a liquid? No. Water is liquid. Space isn't. Space has no traits of a liquid ocean physically. Is it a gas? No. Freezing space if it were a gas should collapse into a solid form. But it allegedly keeps "expanding" like a hot gas escaping from something. So it's not a gas. Is it a plasma? No. Space is inert. It doesn't conduct electricity. So what is "space" made of?

The answers to these questions could scientists really have gained from the best of the numerous cultural descriptions of Stories of Creation - if interpreted in modern terms of "basical and principle elementary conditions; energies and motions" and not as "deities of this and that".

"In the beginning" cannot be taken as "a beginning" since the mythical and native concept of everything is cyclical, and thus no Big Bang here either. They all talks of "a latent stage of elements and their qualities" before anything firm matter and form is created. Here the stories of creation speak of eternal Primeval Waters, (CMB), and of infinite voids filled with these basical and fluctuatiing elements, where hydrogen and helium ("watery and airy elements") mostly fills up the vast void.

The next following mythical explanation deals with "the setting in motion issue". Here light "let there be light" = electromagneto-dynamics and discharges and cold and hot conditions = thermodynamics comes into the equaton. Then we have the aspect of "assembling and spreading" where both thermodynamics and electrodynamics can achieve these swirling patterns of "infolding and outfolding" formation.

And so on and etc.

For centuries we have been told by intellectually educated people who told that its all very complex - but the complexity only derives from the cultural and scientifical disattachment from Nature and its obvious patterns of formation everywhere.

Once we were told and learned only that an apple fell from the tree - now we also ponders over the natural motions of formations which creates the apple in the tree in the first place.


Interesting reply.

I am not a religious "creationist" but I am philosophical. Science doesn't inculcate "Creation" or "stories" or "philosophy" into its paradigm. This is why they are in fantasy.
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby Native » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:48 am

@viscount aero, you wrote:
Interesting reply.
I am not a religious "creationist" but I am philosophical. Science doesn't inculcate "Creation" or "stories" or "philosophy" into its paradigm. This is why they are in fantasy.

Neither am I and I´m also philosophical. I just have stumbled over the concrete ancient Mytho-Cosmological knowledge, and trying to implement modern scientifical terms and explanations into the old knowledge - and vise versa.
Life makes senses and who could doubt it, if you have no doubt about it. - "Grooks" by Piet Hein - My fellow Danish countryman and also a Natural Philosopher
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby viscount aero » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:49 am

Native wrote:@viscount aero, you wrote:
Interesting reply.
I am not a religious "creationist" but I am philosophical. Science doesn't inculcate "Creation" or "stories" or "philosophy" into its paradigm. This is why they are in fantasy.

Neither am I and I´m also philosophical. I just have stumbled over the concrete ancient Mytho-Cosmological knowledge, and trying to implement modern scientifical terms and explanations into the old knowledge - and vise versa.


Very good :idea:
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby StefanR » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:46 am

Native wrote:Neither am I and I´m also philosophical. I just have stumbled over the concrete ancient Mytho-Cosmological knowledge, and trying to implement modern scientifical terms and explanations into the old knowledge - and vise versa.

If you like the philosophical side of it, you might be interested in these videos of Piere Grimes on:
Thales, Anaximander and Anaximenes:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF32C6C1D8840B962
Heraclitus:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAC9C824FBE12B786
The Eleatic school of Parmenides, Zeno, and Melissius :
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL574BA8D31FFB90A0

They give a nice introduction to that material, but it might cause you to have to rethink if it
is valid to implement modern scientifical terms and explanations to some of these texts or ideas.
And then this doesn't even adress the difficulties of relating myth too quickly in the realm of
a purely linear material explanantion or interpretation. Trying to cut off these old texts from the
culture in which they functioned and not take into account the reflections from people in that culture
might not be quite the proper way to deal with them. But perhaps you may find a different way
of approaching it which might be more fruitful, than sticking to a too empirical material mindset.
This for me personally is one of the problems i see too with the TB approach to myth, but once more
that is my personal viewpoint. And by now I have maybe spoken too much out of context of this thread
so I will keep it at that. ;)

(PS, Also one of the possible difficulties nowadays is that because of the modern Scientific Program
moving away from the Natural Philosophic tradition is that it entailed an separating from metaphysics, up
to the point that perhaps even those that wish to move back to that don't really quite grasp anymore
what metaphysics and cosmology is, and that empirical science sure does have its place but only as a
part of the story and never on itself able to come to a conclusion.)
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby Native » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:34 am

@ StefanR,
Thanks for your reply,
And by now I have maybe spoken too much out of context of this thread so I will keep it at that. ;)

"Dark matter or dark minds" - What is out of - or in - context in this topical matter?

If someone can find philosophical ideas which either confirms or rejects anything cosmological or astrophysical, everything should really be allowed, don´t you think?

I just skimmed the amount of videos you now have got me occupied with - so until some months . . . :)

No I´ll take a quick closer look an return a little bit later. I think I have a good approach to differ "what´s up and down" in the interpretative business, but let´s se.
Life makes senses and who could doubt it, if you have no doubt about it. - "Grooks" by Piet Hein - My fellow Danish countryman and also a Natural Philosopher
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby Native » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:12 am

@StefanR,
Forgive me for coming back so quick - but my "photographic hearing" have given me this temporary understanding of your links:

1. The noble art of critique.
2. Opposite and sharp contrasts.
3. Rationality and reason.

All in all, methods to "differ and connect". I´ll enjoy more listenings later. :idea:

You then earlier commented that:
They give a nice introduction to that material, but it might cause you to have to rethink if it
is valid to implement modern scientifical terms and explanations to some of these texts or ideas.
And then this doesn't even adress the difficulties of relating myth too quickly in the realm of
a purely linear material explanantion or interpretation.

I´m fylly aware of interpreting the mythical material only cyclical and get rid of everything which smells of both historical events or persons as well as sorting away geographical connections which are remembrance marks of celestial images or deities.

I have a reply in another forum from where you can get an idea of my attempts to "fuse science and mythology" here https://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?view=&gid=4866113&item=5891728275494940676&type=member&commentID=5892641225785253888&trk=eml-ntf-hero-like-my-discussion-cmt-view&midToken=AQH1ef-TithDDw&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=0p5WX4oCmImCk1#commentID_5892641225785253888 - the first two replies. You can respond there if you like. Otherwise contact me via my mail here on TB.

Then your:
This for me personally is one of the problems i see too with the TB approach to myth, but once more
that is my personal viewpoint.

Contact me via my mail here on TB and describe your problems.
Life makes senses and who could doubt it, if you have no doubt about it. - "Grooks" by Piet Hein - My fellow Danish countryman and also a Natural Philosopher
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby StefanR » Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:44 pm

Native wrote:@ StefanR,
Thanks for your reply,
And by now I have maybe spoken too much out of context of this thread so I will keep it at that. ;)

"Dark matter or dark minds" - What is out of - or in - context in this topical matter?
I don't know, but this thread started out about dark matter, so in that sense.

If someone can find philosophical ideas which either confirms or rejects anything cosmological or astrophysical, everything should really be allowed, don´t you think?
Perhaps, but only at the 'risk' of moving the discussion too far away from its OP.

I just skimmed the amount of videos you now have got me occupied with - so until some months . . . :)
In a sense they are just three videos of each about an hour, but there are no time constraints concerned here,
it was just a link to things relating to your statements about mythical, poetic and philosophic writings and
construeing modern physical interpretations on them.


No I´ll take a quick closer look an return a little bit later. I think I have a good approach to differ "what´s up and down" in the interpretative business, but let´s se.
Be free to do as you wish, it's merely something to take in consideration.
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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Re: The Insoluble and Illogical Dark Matter Paradox

Unread postby StefanR » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:16 pm

Native wrote:@StefanR,
Forgive me for coming back so quick - but my "photographic hearing" have given me this temporary understanding of your links:

1. The noble art of critique.
2. Opposite and sharp contrasts.
3. Rationality and reason.

All in all, methods to "differ and connect". I´ll enjoy more listenings later. :idea:
It's ok take your time, it's more for reflection than some sort of immediate critique.

You then earlier commented that:
They give a nice introduction to that material, but it might cause you to have to rethink if it
is valid to implement modern scientifical terms and explanations to some of these texts or ideas.
And then this doesn't even adress the difficulties of relating myth too quickly in the realm of
a purely linear material explanantion or interpretation.

I´m fylly aware of interpreting the mythical material only cyclical and get rid of everything which smells of both historical events or persons as well as sorting away geographical connections which are remembrance marks of celestial images or deities.
And you are perfectly free to use your own methods to whatever degree you see fit, it is only my opinion
that one has to wonder if one approaches the source material fairly and appreciates how the cultures themselves
understand and use these forms of communication.


I have a reply in another forum from where you can get an idea of my attempts to "fuse science and mythology" here https://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?view=&gid=4866113&item=5891728275494940676&type=member&commentID=5892641225785253888&trk=eml-ntf-hero-like-my-discussion-cmt-view&midToken=AQH1ef-TithDDw&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=0p5WX4oCmImCk1#commentID_5892641225785253888 - the first two replies. You can respond there if you like. Otherwise contact me via my mail here on TB.
Hello Ivar, I kind of had the feeling it was you, are you back to the forum, you old viking!? ;)
Well, it is very kind to refer me there, though it leeds me back to a thread on the TB-forum again, where you having a little bit of a fit, I noticed. Come on, you have been here before and you know the rules of the forum and how it works here. ;) But that is not my discussion.
Once more, I personally think it's fine to do what you do, I just don't agree with it.


Then your:
This for me personally is one of the problems i see too with the TB approach to myth, but once more
that is my personal viewpoint.

Contact me via my mail here on TB and describe your problems.
Well you can remember the previous time you were active on the forum, there was GreyCloud who had some very good opinions, which I would still support and agree with. Sadly not all of his posts are still present because part of the forum was closed were he had made specific criticisms. There were other members present to myth-discussions at that time, of which some threads are in the NIAMI section. So there is no need I think to go into that again.
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.
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