Moon Craters

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby frankebe » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:29 pm

Makes sense. So then we cannot tell the difference between an impact crater and an electric machining after the fact. Oops...
frankebe
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:16 pm

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby Sparky » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:08 am

If I understand the EU view, all evidence needs to be considered. A largish crater with smaller ones on it's edge and channels running off to other craters, or associated lichtenberg figure is in my mind electrical arc discharge. ;)
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

New Crater on MARS

Unread postby bdw000 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:20 pm

Now they say they have a new crater on Mars:
[url]
http://io9.com/a-spectacular-new-impact ... 1517305316[/url]

Haven't tracked down the actual NASA or JPL image, which I assume is much higher quality than the one in this article.
bdw000
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:06 pm

Re: New Crater on MARS

Unread postby Metryq » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:21 am

bdw000 wrote:Now they say they have a new crater on Mars:
[url]
http://io9.com/a-spectacular-new-impact ... 1517305316[/url]

Haven't tracked down the actual NASA or JPL image, which I assume is much higher quality than the one in this article.


Here's the largest I could find through Google image match (click third image on page, 2880 x 1800):
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/02/a-spe ... e-of-mars/
User avatar
Metryq
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:31 am

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby Steve Smith » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:24 pm

Several extremely large images here:

https://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_034285_1835

I looked at the 360 meg image using HiView. Definitely a rock hit Mars. There is a debris field around the crater and boulders scattered inside, as well as on the rim. The rim is also rounded, where electric arcs tend to form sharply delineated rims with scallops and fulgurites embedded in the wall.
Steve Smith
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:53 pm

Hi Steve,
This crater has been mentioned before, but wondering how you would classify it, impact or discharge?

The site in Irkutsk, Siberia was discovered in 1949 and is a huge convex cone with a funnel-shaped recess and a rounded hill in the middle, which looks a little like an eagle’s nest with an egg nestled inside it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... blast.html

With craters on the Moon or Mars, do you have a rough idea, based on your classifications, as to what percentages are impact and what are discharges? I'm wondering if it may be the direction, or perhaps other variables, of the discharge that can cause the difference in characteristics, and that the great majority, if not all, are electrical.
Yes, perhaps I have an electric hammer in both hands. :D
The Man with a Hammer
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2014/02 ... -a-hammer/
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2659
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby Jupiter05085 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:06 pm

Hi,
Let's take a look at NASA data:
weight = 40 kg (what is weight, weight on the Moon?)
size = 0.3-0.4 m
speed = 56,000 mph
explosion = 5 tons TNT

This immediately leads to:
speed - 25 km/s
density - 0.149-0.354 (was it rock?) personally I don't believe in porous celestial bodies.
TNT equivalent is well defined value, which is 4.184 GigaJoules.
I think for the speed of 25 km/s non-relativistic formulas is OK.
Energy=mv2/2, which makes it 2.99 tons of TNT (30% of discrepancy? - was it solid body after all?)
Explosion energy does not corresponds to explosion of solid body.
For the energy calculation I used m=40 kg, but if they provided weight (does not matter on Earth or on Moon) then mass is equals to weight divided by gravity acceleration (9.8/1.6) and tons of TNT became 0.3/1.87.

Regards.
Jupiter05085
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:39 am

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby trevbus » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:53 am

This impact was observed in September

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26325934
trevbus
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:50 am

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby Sparky » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:24 am

"Usually lunar impacts have a very short duration - just a fraction of a second. But the impact we detected lasted over eight seconds.


This, to me suggests that an electrical discharge was involved. ;)
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby allynh » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:11 am

This is the video of the impact.

Lunar impact blast (11 September 2013)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCFDkj2JtyA
allynh
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:51 pm

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby Steve Smith » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:55 am

My kinetic energy calculations were way off. Since 1 joule = 1kg (ms)^2, then a 40 kg object, moving at 25000 mps (converted from 90,000 kph) would impart 12,500,000,000 joules of kinetic energy to the impact site.

Kinetic energy is converted to heat and light, so no atmosphere is required to produce a flash. Since 1 ton of TNT is equivalent to 4,184,000,000 joules, then about 3 tons of TNT exploded on the Moon. I submit that that is quite enough to create a visible flash. The conversion of mass into thermal and optical energy would have been rapid, so the explosion created a fast transient that quickly dissipated.
Steve Smith
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 2:23 pm


Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby GaryN » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:49 pm

@Sparky
This, to me suggests that an electrical discharge was involved.


I'd agree there. I'm of the mind that all the craters are electrical, Steve believes that physical impacts occur, but I am willing to go 50/50 kind of, as an object approaching the Moon at high speed, and possessing a different charge to the lunar surface would surely discharge at some altitude, creating the flash or glow, and likely exploding the approaching object, assuming it was a rock and not a lump of metal.
The other option may be that if a physical impact did take place, that piezoelectric effects may occur, quartz was found in some Lunar rocks, but other surface materials, given such an impact speed, could likely produce piezo- electric effects to sufficient degree to cause a flash. Are there no space based instruments watching the Moon on a regular basis for these type of events? Surely more data could be acquired from space than from Earth?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2659
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby Steve Smith » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:36 pm

Except that the Moon has no magnetosphere, and its e-field is close to the surface. That e-field exists primarily during the full Moon when Earth's magnetotail brushes the lunar surface, which is then exposed to the trapped ions inside the plasma sheet.

Since there's no electromagnetic field surrounding the Moon, then a flaring bolide (as seen on Earth) isn't a good explanation for the flash. Why is the multi-gigajoule kinetic event so distasteful?

Like Mars, the large craters and other features on the Moon are electrical; caused by the events that influenced both bodies and the Solar System, in general, a few thousand years ago. However, those electrodynamic fields are no longer extant in the Solar System.

Exploding Bolides

Lunar Charge Distribution

Lunar Magnetic Anomalies
Steve Smith
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Re: New Crater on Moon

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:34 am

What mechanism would hold the flash for 8 sec.?
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Electric Universe - Planetary Science

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests