Earth - electric oceans

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:34 pm

Along the same lines, I always wondered how radio waves "bounce off" the ionosphere. -CC


Wouldn't the ionospheres, considered as 'double-layers', be in effect a dielectric Interface,
and so function as waveguides; similar to optic and coax cables ?

÷
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:35 am

seasmith wrote:Wouldn't the ionospheres, considered as 'double-layers', be in effect a dielectric Interface,
and so function as waveguides; similar to optic and coax cables?

Well, for the reflection to occur in the ionosphere, the difference in dielectric constants would be between the ionosphere and the interplanetary medium, since there isn't much above the mesosphere other than thinner and thinner plasma, all of it quasi-neutral but with a slight positive charge, and increasing degrees of ionization.

What does that mean?

I don't know. :)
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:58 am

Well, for the reflection to occur in the ionosphere, the difference in dielectric constants would be between the ionosphere and the interplanetary medium...


Yes, degree of reflection would be dependent upon the Ratios of the permittivities (dielectric 'constants') of the ionospheric layers to the permittivity of (relatively) free space,
though the means to measure the permittivity of something so nebulous as electric dl's are probably not yet in place.

On the other hand, your suggestion of EM wave "refraction", is probably just as tenable.

;)


Table I. Dielectric Constants of Common Materials
Material Dielectric Constant
Vacuum
1.0
Air
1.0006
Rubber
2.1
Rubber
2.8
Paper
3.0
Cocaine
3.1
Quartz
4.2
Glass
7.8
Zircon
12
Ethyl Alcohol
24
Water (212 deg F)
55.3
Water (32 deg F)
88
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Sparky » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:14 pm

Maybe the remains of the solid atmosphere, as a thin shell, so far undetected.. 8-)

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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:50 pm

I finished my initial write-up of the electric theory of Semi-diurnal Tides, so that's ready for review. There's a good bit more to do, but I at least got the basic idea laid out and illustrated.
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby celeste » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:42 pm

Charles, I think you are still missing the effect of magnetic fields? To answer Aardwolf's third post in this thread: Do you see that if we have a charge distribution as you describe, and we have the Earth and Moon orbiting each other in some external magnetic field over the course of a month, we end up with the effect he is describing here?
I'm grossly oversimplifying again, but if we have a positively charged Earth,with negatively charged lobes of ocean on each side, then for half the month,Earth is traveling one direction through an external magnetic field (with the negatively charged oceans pulled to the inside of the orbit,the positively charged earth to the outside) , then the opposite relationship for the next half month.
What is more, if we accept that Earth and Moon are not each net neutral, but at least slightly charged compared to each other, we can explain the correspondence of tides to perihelion/aphelion? In other words, besides thinking of Earth and Moon being bound by some inverse square force (gravity or E-M), just consider what happens to two electrostatic charges as they orbit in some external magnetic field. Do you see what happens?
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:15 pm

beekeeper wrote:According to some researchers the oceans as well as the large bodies of fresh water are electrically charged. For some the oceans have a negative charge for a few tens of meters from the surface, as the fresh water bodies are charged differently. So electrical interaction may very well be at play in the coming and going of the tides.

You don't happen to remember which researchers were talking about surface charges? This is a well known fact, as is the positive charge in the ionosphere, but I'd still like to review your references -- you never know what you're going to find. ;) But yes -- electrical charges are IMO the only thing that can explain the tides.

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Ummm... does that mean that CFDLs are CIA-approved? :D

Or just lurker-friendly? :D

Who do I talk to about getting on a watch-list or something? Then I'd be "special" (at least more so than I am right now). :D

celeste wrote:Charles, I think you are still missing the effect of magnetic fields? To answer Aardwolf's third post in this thread: Do you see that if we have a charge distribution as you describe, and we have the Earth and Moon orbiting each other in some external magnetic field over the course of a month, we end up with the effect he is describing here?
I'm grossly oversimplifying again, but if we have a positively charged Earth,with negatively charged lobes of ocean on each side, then for half the month,Earth is traveling one direction through an external magnetic field (with the negatively charged oceans pulled to the inside of the orbit,the positively charged earth to the outside) , then the opposite relationship for the next half month.
What is more, if we accept that Earth and Moon are not each net neutral, but at least slightly charged compared to each other, we can explain the correspondence of tides to perihelion/aphelion? In other words, besides thinking of Earth and Moon being bound by some inverse square force (gravity or E-M), just consider what happens to two electrostatic charges as they orbit in some external magnetic field. Do you see what happens?

Magnetic fields might influence the crustal tides, due to the iron in the ground, but not the oceanic tides. The response of water to magnetic fields is extremely weak, and it would take a field 200,000 times the strength of the Earth's field to be as powerful as gravity. I guess I could see how a cumulative effect from a small force could set up the resonating waves in the oceans that are actually directly responsible for observed tides. (It has more to do with harmonic frequencies of ocean basins than the instantaneous tidal forces.) But I don't see how this would vary the oceanic tides as fast as a 28-day cycle. As concerns the crustal tides, they would be strongest at the magnetic poles, where the lines of force converge. To my knowledge, crustal tides are the strongest at the equator. But I have a lot to learn. I really only just finished writing up the basic idea of tides as effects of electric forces, just to get a good look at the idea. Next comes the more thorough research, now that I know what hypothesis I'm testing. ;)
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Native » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:18 am

TIDAL PRESSURE HYPOTHESIS

Hello All,

It is my opinion that the movements of tides are mostly of mechanical nature where forces of pressures and the lunar shading thereof interacts with rotational and centrifugal motions and the Earth´s distribution of land mass.

1. Main Pressure:
The Earth orbital speed of 107200 km/h mainly creates a huge atmospheric pressure on the Earth. (Secondary pressures from the Solar and Galactic Winds)

2. Shading of the Earth´s orbital pressure:
Cyclical pressure shadings by the Moon create lunar differences in the high and low tides.

3. Earth orbit:
The Earth´s axial tilt creates seasonal (equinoxes) high and low tide effects on both hemispheres.

4. Earth rotation:
The Earth´s 2 major land masses create the 2 daily high and low tides.

Earth Geoid.jpg
http://denali.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/earth_grav/

I´ll be pleased to have comments for and against this hypothesis. What do you say?
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Aardwolf » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:29 am

Native wrote:1. Main Pressure:
The Earth orbital speed of 107200 km/h mainly creates a huge atmospheric pressure on the Earth. (Secondary pressures from the Solar and Galactic Winds)
If this was the main cause they why do we experience high neap tides with the moon trailing the orbit of the Earth around the Sun and unable to shield any pressure?

Native wrote:2. Shading of the Earth´s orbital pressure:
Cyclical pressure shadings by the Moon create lunar differences in the high and low tides.
As a secondary cause whay are the highest tides during periods when the Moon is between the Earth and Sun and also when the Earth is between Sun and Moon. In the latter case the Earth will be feeling the full force of the solar wind pressure yet can have it's highest tide of the month.
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Native » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:05 am

Aardwolf wrote:
Native wrote:1. Main Pressure:
The Earth orbital speed of 107200 km/h mainly creates a huge atmospheric pressure on the Earth. (Secondary pressures from the Solar and Galactic Winds)
If this was the main cause they why do we experience high neap tides with the moon trailing the orbit of the Earth around the Sun and unable to shield any pressure?

Native wrote:2. Shading of the Earth´s orbital pressure:
Cyclical pressure shadings by the Moon create lunar differences in the high and low tides.
As a secondary cause whay are the highest tides during periods when the Moon is between the Earth and Sun and also when the Earth is between Sun and Moon. In the latter case the Earth will be feeling the full force of the solar wind pressure yet can have it's highest tide of the month.

Hello Aardwolf,

Thanks for your reply
If this was the main cause they why do we experience high neap tides with the moon trailing the orbit of the Earth around the Sun and unable to shield any pressure?

AD: In this case the Moon is shading the secondary pressure from the Solar Wind.

1) If my thesis is correct, you have to constantly include the Earth orbital speed pressure as the primary cause for tides, and not just the Solar Wind.

Please, take another look at my "Tidal Pressure Hypothesis"-post and include the "orbital speed pressure" in your constellational considerations. (The Solar Wind pressure and the lunar shadings of this is a minor effect in my opinion)

NB: A constant orbital speed pressure on the Earth will tend to make a standing bulge on the opposite side of the Earth directional motion as the Earth revolve.
Last edited by Native on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Aardwolf » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:18 am

Native wrote:1) If my thesis is correct, you have to constantly include the Earth orbital speed pressure as the primary cause for tides, and not just the Solar Wind.
Then why is there not a permanent low tide in the direction of Earths orbit around the sun?

A constant orbital speed pressure on the Earth will tendend to make a standing bulge on the opposite side of the Earth directional motion as the Earth revolve.
How do you explain a leading Neap tide?
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Native » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:38 am

Aardwolf wrote:
Native wrote:1) If my thesis is correct, you have to constantly include the Earth orbital speed pressure as the primary cause for tides, and not just the Solar Wind.
Then why is there not a permanent low tide in the direction of Earths orbit around the sun?
A constant orbital speed pressure on the Earth will tendend to make a standing bulge on the opposite side of the Earth directional motion as the Earth revolve.
How do you explain a leading Neap tide?

AD: My best answer to both questions is: Because of the movements of the main 2 land masses on the Earth pushes the oceans in front of them, creation high and low tides as the Earth obital speed pressure pushes against the oceans.

NB: I hope my somewhat restricted English is sufficient enough to explain myself . . .
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Aardwolf » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:56 am

Native wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:
Native wrote:1) If my thesis is correct, you have to constantly include the Earth orbital speed pressure as the primary cause for tides, and not just the Solar Wind.
Then why is there not a permanent low tide in the direction of Earths orbit around the sun?
A constant orbital speed pressure on the Earth will tendend to make a standing bulge on the opposite side of the Earth directional motion as the Earth revolve.
How do you explain a leading Neap tide?

AD: My best answer to both questions is: Because of the movements of the main 2 land masses on the Earth pushes the oceans in front of them, creation high and low tides as the Earth obital speed pressure pushes against the oceans.
The problem with this is that high tide is every 12 hours and 25 minutes (exactly half a lunar day - conincidence?). Also the main land masses are not evenly spaced so why every 12 hours and 25 min and not in sync with the leading edge of each land mass?

I dont think you appreciate that the tides very accurately sync with the orbit of the moon. My only dispute is that this cannot be gravitationally driven.
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby Native » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:25 am

Aardwolf,
You wrote:
The problem with this is that high tide is every 12 hours and 25 minutes (exactly half a lunar day - conincidence?). Also the main land masses are not evenly spaced so why every 12 hours and 25 min and not in sync with the leading edge of each land mass?
I dont think you appreciate that the tides very accurately sync with the orbit of the moon. My only dispute is that this cannot be gravitationally driven.

AD: I quite agree with you on the non gravitational driven tides which is my prime cause to set up an alternative hypothesis of "orbital speed pressure".

Couldn´t it be a case of both a prime orbital pressure combined with the secondary constellation shadings from the Moon (lunar rhythms) and the also secondary Solar wind pressure or shadings of this?

I haven´t calculated the distance of the 2 main land masses and the tidal rhythms but could there possibly be a kind of delay-rhythm caused by of an orbital speed pressure on the oceans which just coincidence with the lunar cycles?

I mean, if the tides is traditionally connected to the "lunar gravity" and we don´t think much of the gravity ideas, we must be able to find other explanations, right? But which then?
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Re: Tides on tides off

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:32 am

Native wrote:I mean, if the tides is traditionally connected to the "lunar gravity" and we don´t think much of the gravity ideas, we must be able to find other explanations, right? But which then?

Tides are definitely connected to the lunar cycle. This was assumed to be due to gravity, but we now know that this is not the case. For example, gravity from the Sun is 179 times stronger than from the Moon. If gravity was doing the work, tides would track the Sun first, and the Moon second (if at all). So it definitely isn't gravity. So what else could it be? There are 3 known forces operative at the macroscopic level: gravity, the electric force, and the magnetic force. It isn't gravity. That leaves the electric and magnetic forces. Start there. ;)

If you can successfully rule out both the electric and magnetic forces, then you have good reason to wonder about some new type of force, or interaction. But good scientific method requires that we rule out all known factors before concluding that it's something new. Gravity can be ruled out. So can the magnetic force. (The field doesn't change in sync with the high and low tides.) That leaves the electric force. There, the field does change in sync with the tides, since the degree of ionization in the ionosphere has a tidal cycle. And the electric force can produce both near and far side bulges, accounting for 2 tides per day. So I'm studying up on that, looking for more supporting information, and for the testable predictions. It looks like it's all there -- it just takes work to pull it all together. So IMO, the electric force is "it". If you want a piece of this, join in and do some of the footwork, and you'll get credit for having been involved in the discovery of the true nature of tides.
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