EU and Human Origins

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby nick c » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:25 pm

jmcw,
For clarification, Velikovsky acknowledged the mechanism you outlined for the origin of salt water:
jmcw wrote:the salinity of ocean water isn't just NaCl its also made up of potassium salts, calcium, etc...even minute amounts of gold and other metals

The alchemists figured out where the salinity in the oceans came from a long time ago. Simple experiments of adding soil to water then filtering out the dirt then evaporating the water left behind salts
[snip]
so the salinity of the oceans is due to any water cycle from rain wash off, springs percolating up filling creeks wadis rivers etc and then flowing out to the seas carrying salts in very minute amounts but all such together and over a long time will concentrate the salts in our oceans
The problem is that there are many different types of salts in the oceans and if the process you describe were the sole source of ocean salts then the proportions of the different salts in the rivers should be roughly equivalent to that in the ocean. But they are not. Velikovsky did not write that the oceans were once fresh water, only that Saturn added a large quantity of salt water to the Earth's hydrosphere, that salt water did not have the same composition of salts that would be produced by the process you describe.
see:
http://www.varchive.org/itb/ecocean.htm
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby jmcw » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:33 pm

nick c wrote:...............The problem is that there are many different types of salts in the oceans and if the process you describe were the sole source of ocean salts then the proportions of the different salts in the rivers should be roughly equivalent to that in the ocean. But they are not. Velikovsky did not write that the oceans were once fresh water, only that Saturn added a large quantity of salt water to the Earth's hydrosphere, that salt water did not have the same composition of salts that would be produced by the process you describe.
see:
http://www.varchive.org/itb/ecocean.htm



? no, the proportion of & kinds of salts are different based upon surounding soil and rock differences in areas which leads to closed/ land locked seas and salt lakes having varying proportions and kinds of salts.....for example the dead sea is much higher in magnesium than any other land locked sea, salt lake, or the oceans due to higher magnesium content of surrounding areas soil and rocks. That is why dead sea salts make great bath salts but horrible for table salt because the high magnesium content will give you the squirts = why magnesium is the key ingredient in milk of magnesia to get rid of constipation

the oceans are more homogenous in salt proportions and kinds due to oceanic currents and a long period of time mixing them all

now if we terraformed mars and dumped a bunch of water on it to start a water cycle it will develop salt seas and oceans but they will have different proportions and kinds as compared to earth due to martian soil and rocks having different proportions of minerals than earth in general
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby nick c » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:38 pm

So then there is no test. Whatever the composition of ocean salts; the explanation is it came from somewhere in land rocks. Any results will support the hypothesis, there is no possibility of falsification and nothing is established.
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby tholden » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:05 pm

One thing we do know: there is very, very little sodium around Ganymede...

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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby jmcw » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:08 pm

nick c wrote:So then there is no test. Whatever the composition of ocean salts; the explanation is it came from somewhere in land rocks. Any results will support the hypothesis, there is no possibility of falsification and nothing is established.


test for what?

the age of the oceans on earth? rough estimates can be arrived at via taking the salt and mineral content of ocean water...figure the amount of such flowing into oceans via the water cycle and oceanic evaporation etc....and arrive at a rough estimate of how long there have been oceans on earth

what hypothesis do you wish to test?

tholden wrote:One thing we do know: there is very, very little sodium around Ganymede...
....................


then we will have to ship salts there
earth life needs salts to continue to live...earth based life can't exist without salts (the proportion is only issue..too little and life will cease to exist and too much will also kill) and water needs salts for better electrical conductivity

the salts in the earth's oceans might play a very important role in keeping the earth's electrical charge vs the solar system plasma in balance

pure water has a very low conductivity
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby nick c » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:31 pm

jmcw wrote:test for what?
A test for the proposition that the proportions of sea salts can be accounted for by the mechanism you describe.
The fact is that rivers, and you can pick your river, have less than 10% of salts as chlorides and sea water has almost 90%. Why would the percentage of salts be skewered? The mechanism you describe does not account for the ratios.
River water has many carbonates (80 percent of the salts), fewer sulphates (13 percent) and still fewer chlorides (7 percent). Sea water has many chlorides (89 percent), fewer sulphates (10 percent) and only a few carbonates (0.2 percent). The comparison of these figures makes it clear that rivers cannot be made responsible for most of the salts of the seas.
The feeding of salts into the oceans by rivers is a process that is taking place, however, it does not account for the glaring ratio differences. Simply saying that "the proportion of & kinds of salts are different based upon surounding soil and rock differences in areas which leads to closed/ land locked seas and salt lakes having varying proportions and kinds of salts....." does not explain the glaring dominance of chlorides in seawater.
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby jmcw » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:26 pm

nick c wrote:.........snip...........


maybe we are misunderstanding each other

But the salinity concentration in oceans is just that...a long period of time of the runoff , water evaporates from the oceans and recycles through the clouds/rain....more salts carried to the oceans...evaporation again (the salts don't evaporate...just the water) etc etc ad infinitum, well as long as there has been liquid water on earth at least

ALSO, you must add the salts percolating up/ leached up from the ocean floors

^ the oceans comprise 70%-75% of earth's surface = a lot of salts leached up from the ocean floor

I think you are forgetting TIME...lots and lots of time to concentrate amounts and kinds

ocean water evaporates to continue through the water cycle back to rain/mist/fog filling creeks, wadis, rivers that travel back to the ocean carrying salts in minute amounts

over a HUGE amount of time the salts are concentrated in the oceans

earth being in orbit around the sun might be relatively youthful,
but the earth itself existed far longer than its current orbit

the water cycle has existed as long as there has been water on earth whether this current orbit or in orbit around saturn (water and its affects = carrying salts to lower elevation oceans and seas didn't magically not exist at that time) though evaporation could have been slower due to saturn's nature at that time as vs the evaporitive affect of SOL

picture a salt drying pool/ evaporitive pool....shallow pools are created on the shores of beaches using rocks etcallowed to fill via high tide...then during low tide the sun causes the ocean water to evaporate and leave behind concentrated salts that are sold as sea salt. Unprocessed sea salt done this way is the best and called WET SEA SALT because it is damp and grayish in color generally though some areas produce pink sea salt like Hawaii because of the differing amounts of salts and kinds of off of Hawaii that haven't been homegenous circulated with the larger world oceans..........when processed then the sea salt will loose a lot of minerals , be dry, and tend to whiteness which is not the best tasting nor healthiest form. Wet unprocessed sea salt = a good brand is Celtic Sea Salt brand that still uses the "primitive" evaporation pool system with little modern processing and is grayish, wet, and have more minerals than your run of the mill table salt................................now just imagine the oceans as being a MACRO / world wide version of such over a long period of time.

PS; the modern world ascribes the knowledge of why the oceans are saline to 1718

BUT! the alchemists figured it out wayyyyyyyy before that. In fact, the alchemists knew more (& preserved a lot of knowledge from earlier times) than the modern world gives them credit for. I highly recommend reading up on alchemy and the alchemists. Though the more interesting stuff is written in symbolic language and pictographs
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby tholden » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:32 am

jmcw wrote:then we will have to ship salts there
earth life needs salts to continue to live...earth based life can't exist without salts (the proportion is only issue..too little and life will cease to exist and too much will also kill) and water needs salts for better electrical conductivity

the salts in the earth's oceans might play a very important role in keeping the earth's electrical charge vs the solar system plasma in balance

pure water has a very low conductivity


As I've noted (in the forum section on planetary science), Ganymede's conductivity arises from a combination of pumice and P-holes, and not from salt water. Also again, Cosmos in Collision demonstrates to within what I call a statistical certainty that Ganymede was in fact the original home of modern humans in our system and, for whatever reason or reason, they required no more salt than the place actually has, if any.

Also as the thread I mentioned notes, the intrinsic magnetospheres of both Earth and Ganymede appear to be remnants, fused in by Birkeland currents in an earlier age, and not the result of any sort of ongoing processes involving dynamo effects. The observed weakening of Earth's magnetosphere is in fact what you would expect given that hypothesis.
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby tholden » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:17 am

At least this was originally posted in the planetary science section.....

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=477&p=86248&hilit=ganymede#p86248
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby jmcw » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:27 pm

tholden wrote: As I've noted (in the forum section on planetary science), Ganymede's conductivity arises from a combination of pumice and P-holes, and not from salt water. Also again, Cosmos in Collision demonstrates to within what I call a statistical certainty that Ganymede was in fact the original home of modern humans in our system and, for whatever reason or reason, they required no more salt than the place actually has, if any.

Also as the thread I mentioned notes, the intrinsic magnetospheres of both Earth and Ganymede appear to be remnants, fused in by Birkeland currents in an earlier age, and not the result of any sort of ongoing processes involving dynamo effects. The observed weakening of Earth's magnetosphere is in fact what you would expect given that hypothesis.


still haven't read your book yet and have only just recently stuck a toe into the forums so have a LOT of reading to do. :-)

"...they required no more salt than the place actually has, if any...."

look foreword to reading about ganymede , but have to quibble over "if any.." humans can't live without salts , a lesser amount than current earth is very possible but non what so ever just isn't going to work for human life expectancy

do wonder something about Ganymede. The daily dose of radiation from interaction with jupiter's radiation belt is supposedly 8 rems a day which is HUGE! Calisto is safer at only .01 rems a day

Probably best if you tell me " READ MY BOOK" :-P anyway; will try to get to it as quickly as possible

please bear with me trying to catch up on reading
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby tholden » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:31 pm

jmcw wrote:
still haven't read your book yet and have only just recently stuck a toe into the forums so have a LOT of reading to do. :-)



Also (and free):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p10PiJPEq4
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby jmcw » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:29 am

tholden wrote:
jmcw wrote:
still haven't read your book yet and have only just recently stuck a toe into the forums so have a LOT of reading to do. :-)



Also (and free):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p10PiJPEq4



Thank you for the link
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby tholden » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:01 am

From Troy, wrt the question of salt on Ganymede:

On the issue of salt and life and its relationship to life on a freshwater world (i.e. Ganymede)

Ganymede is not absent salt, it just has less than Earth’s oceans and the other Jovian moons ― it appears to have roughly the same surface salinity as a fresh body of water or ice. Our proposed pumice mantel would be a sufficient source for the salt needed to promote life, particularly for any vegetables and fruits grown in top soils that would have formed on our proposed pumice bergs from the pumice dust created during Ganymede’s formative period (silicate-based pumice is a fantastic fertiliser and rich in mineral salts).

Even on Earth, the human need for salt can be satisfied by vegetables and fruits which access minerals and salts from the soil. See this article on salt content in fruits and vegetables:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... water.html

For thousands of years on Earth salt was not harvested by humans from the sea. Salt, as a commodity, was mined ― hence the cliché of sending prisoners to the salt mines. Most of these salt mines were inland away from oceans. Table salt today is cheaply manufactured by a chemical process and therefore we no longer need to mine it. However, it would be a mistake to assume that humans have always needed a salt cellar at meal time as humans can quite adequately survive on the mineral salts naturally found in vegetables and fruits.
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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby Paul Kemp » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:05 pm

303vegas wrote:I don't know about being created by god (I wasn't there at the time...) but I could go along with a theory that we're not indigenous to this planet and evolved somewhere else. I've always felt that we, as a species, just don't fit, unlike, as you say, our Neanderthal associates. Perhaps we are refugees or survivors of a 'saucer crash' of maybe we were marooned here, possibly as some sort of punishment or perhaps Douglas Adams was right about us being descended from the Golgafrinchian 'useless third!' When you look at how badly we can behave at times then the prison colony idea starts to look fairly plausible.


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What if all of these above theories actually were a true account of mans history and origins.

What if 1,000,000 years ago evolution created one man and one women from a very advanced primate?

What if 500,000 years ago, advanced beings from worlds like ours 50 men and 50 women came to this world, to teach life skills, learn and live on our world, even to procreate adding a new DNA sequence to mans evolutionary DNA? Lets say they were from the land of Nod!

What if 37,000 years ago the most advanced material beings (so advanced their bodies never grow old or decayed) came to this world and advanced the genetic evolution of our world by the gift of the DNA of their race to our race? (Rumours of the Sons of God going into the Daughters of men)

Lets for a moment assume all of the above statements are true. Then lets look at the scattered remains of historic documents that may give indication of this truth.

Looking to the old Jewish documents brought into the Christian tradition, ask why there was talk of super human beings who lived on earth for thousands of years. For instance who were the people from the land of Nod?

Why does ancient art depict images of flying disks?

Since education is necessary for advanced civilizations to develop, from what educational source did the ability to build pyramids and other ancient structures come from?

Could a child born on this world survive if the parents both died at the birth and their were no replacements? Would a Universe Government supply guidance and care to an evolving race?

Many of the confusions of this world are the result of lost documentation of our past history, origins and destiny. 500,000 years ago their was a library in a place called Dalmata in Mesopotamia that contained over 1,000,000 records. Throughout the generations of man we have continually lost the greater civilizations. All that remains are the Myths of these great achievements in advancing civilization. 37,000 years ago we had built a city that has not been surpassed even to this day in botanical beauty.

Is our world, the only world in the history of the universe to ever keep records? If not, is it possible that if ours our lost they could be replaced?

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Re: EU and Human Origins

Unread postby tholden » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:31 am

Paul Kemp wrote:
303vegas wrote:I don't know about being created by god (I wasn't there at the time...) but I could go along with a theory that we're not indigenous to this planet and evolved somewhere else. I've always felt that we, as a species, just don't fit, unlike, as you say, our Neanderthal associates. Perhaps we are refugees or survivors of a 'saucer crash' of maybe we were marooned here, possibly as some sort of punishment or perhaps Douglas Adams was right about us being descended from the Golgafrinchian 'useless third!' When you look at how badly we can behave at times then the prison colony idea starts to look fairly plausible.


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What if all of these above theories actually were a true account of mans history and origins.

What if 1,000,000 years ago evolution ....


Cosmos in Collision does not address the question of how humans first got to Ganymede. The claim is that Ganymede was, to a statistical certainty, the original home of humans within this system.
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