Questioning the Ice Ages

[moses]

As the land set hard then erosion would take off the surface and leave the hard appearance. So any soft appearance could have been eroded away.

Obviously I support the electric catastrophe model, but we need accuracy and to avoid mistakes. The Grand Canyon summarises the issues. Was it electrically formed or was there massive amounts of flood water that used this place to drain away. At the moment we must consider both possibilities, and massive flooding fits with a catastophic model too.
Cheers,
Mo

[starbiter]

Moses,
If the land form was soft, the dunes of starbiters model perhaps, then I would expect to see, with large water flows, the smooth curves that we see in water flowing through such material, and a much 'softer' appearance to the land form. Looking at google maps, I don't see that. You don't like the electric/plasma catastrophe model I take it?

Hi Gary,

The material that accumulated on dry land [reverse dunes] seems quite resistant to erosion. In some cases the material was full of rocks [conglomerate], in other cases the material was molten forming solid rock.

The material that accumulated under water [slosh] seems very vulnerable to erosion. Especially when the waters were pulled back to the equator as the planet accelerated in a new direction. The width of the erosion channels can't be explained by seasonal rain.

michael

[GaryN]

The last remaining glacier in Indonesia.

Bigger:
http://images.summitpost.org/original/635048.JPG
Boulders in a river in Indonesia.

Todays homework; Calculate the water volume and speed required to tumble these boulders downstream so they can be worn into rounded shapes. How many miles would it take to round the boulders? Even if you were to accept a snowball earth model so that the glaciers in Indonesia might have been deep enough and active enough to have created these boulders, why are they still up at the higher elevations? The whole river course is only 20 km, so they'd need to round off pretty quickly. Or maybe just millions of years of sitting there made them round, time does some amazing things it seems.

[starbiter]

Thanks for posting the images above Gary. The link below for the first image is interesting.

http://images.summitpost.org/original/635048.JPG

Mainstream geology would probably claim the right side of the dark rock below the glacier folded up, with little damage to the layers. The even layers trending down to the left seem sedimentary to me. It's difficult to imagine igneous from below creating even horizontal layers that later folded up.

It appears to me that molten dust blew in from the left coating the flat surface with layer after layer of new rock.

Does the article mention the type of rock Gary? Wiki claims some of the mountain is limestone. From my field work it seems that dolomite and limestone arrived on earth as molten dust in some cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puncak_Jaya

michael

[webolife]

Yes the image does appear to be a classic syncline. You can see the layers on the far side of the valley folded up in the opposite direction. Limestone and other sedimentary formations are bendable, but I would say that the material was folded when the layers were "consolidated" but not yet "cured" -- a catastrophic model of crustal movement allows for this as much crustal pressure accompanied the deposition and erosional processes that left the range looking as it does now. Limestone in particular finds itself on the top of mountain ranges generally, as I've discussed elsewhere. this follows and confirms and conforms to the findings of Guy Berthault.

[seasmith]

The experiments demonstrate that in still water, continuous deposition of heterogranular sediments gives rise to laminae, which disappear progressively as the height of the fall of particles into water (and apparently their size) increases. Laminae follow the slope of the upper part of the deposit. In running water, many closely related superposed types of lamination appear in the deposit (Berthault, 1988 - French Academy of Sciences).

yoh webo,
highly cogent geology as usual...

Problbly just a wonky translation de la Francez, but where they say "fall..into water",
what's the difference, a mile or ten miles? Or is meant to be 'in the water?

"and Laminae disappear progressively ... as particle size increases"-
well yes a laminar structure is a progression of layers, and wouldn't the "laminae" disappear almost completely as that body of water settled out and cleared up, as inland lakes and seas are periodically wont to do ?

If its an electric procession in any way, wouldn't shape be as critical as size ?

As at Fort Collins lab, "fluming" is a form of panning.


So shall we call each canonical million years a thousand,
or do you want to go lower


http://www.sciencevsevolution.org/Berthault.htm

[GaryN]

The image of the Indonesian peak looks to me like many other, predominantly equatorial peaks, in that it has been an electrode, with a sustained dark or perhaps glow mode current connection to above. A discharge mode causes mostly fracturing and shattering. The big depression is what would be called a glacial cirque around here, though we tend to have a more pronounced, melted looking lip or hump at the outlet, but, our slopes are no where near as severe as these pointy peaks. If a connected plasma stream is dusty, than layers may be laid down due to the natural separation of ion specie in a plasma stream.
Ohmic heating and melting primarily, but if there were any HF pulsing to the plasma stream, then the dielectric heating and shaping could also be adding to the interplay of diverse events happening here. My view is that the river valley leading up to the peak was cut from sea level upwards by a tornadic event that would probably fluctuate from glow to arc discharge along its climb, resulting in the diversity of rock modification observed.

Don't try this at home! Amazing what wind will do given enough time. Or was it glaciers? Anyone know where this is from, none of the images I've seen mention the location, but I think its real, not photoshop. I'd like to find out the location, as in the background there seems to be a collection of large rounded boulders.

I think I'd better start a NIAMI thread with my latest ideas on how items like this come to be.

[webolife]

I do a downscaled version of Berthault's flumes at home with a sandscape frame. The laminae are tighter and closer when the flow rate/current is more gradual and deeper/thicker when the flow is greater. By flow I mean the number of particles per time, not speed of particles, which is greater for the larger particles and less for the smaller, regardless of how many particles are falling. This is what gives rise to the different styles of laminae. When different current "sizes" [turbidities] are mixed the laminae become indistinct, and when the flow rate is fairly constant the laminae are distinct and their thickness is determined by the amount of particles being carried.
Bethault also showed soem distinct behaviors in lamination when forming over a mound versus forming in a depression, very interesting stuff, and definitely not part of typical standard geological explanations, whether or not they are familiar with his work...

[starbiter]

I do a downscaled version of Berthault's flumes at home with a sandscape frame. The laminae are tighter and closer when the flow rate/current is more gradual and deeper/thicker when the flow is greater. By flow I mean the number of particles per time, not speed of particles, which is greater for the larger particles and less for the smaller, regardless of how many particles are falling. This is what gives rise to the different styles of laminae. When different current "sizes" [turbidities] are mixed the laminae become indistinct, and when the flow rate is fairly constant the laminae are distinct and their thickness is determined by the amount of particles being carried.
Bethault also showed soem distinct behaviors in lamination when forming over a mound versus forming in a depression, very interesting stuff, and definitely not part of typical standard geological explanations, whether or not they are familiar with his work...

Hi Webo,

The work of Berthalt is important in my vision of the geologic process. An equatorial flood caused by a cessation of rotation seems to fit the lower elevations. On the other hand, there are places covered with carbonates that don't fit a flood scenario. The Dolomites of the Alps come to mind. Also the Spring Mountains West of Las Vegas.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sit ... bQFTJiIyh8

These cliffs seem to be the result of red hot carbonate dust covering the windward side of obstacles.

This would fit the scenario described in Worlds in Collision.

I've been dealing with young Earth creationists with advanced degrees in geology. Instead of embracing the description of catastrophes described in the Torah [Exodus], they instead seem to be uniformatarians, with a flood at the end of billions of years of geologic processes. I'm not certain of the age of Earth. I am confident that the surface of Earth is young, down to a great depth. Worlds in Collision tells me so.

michael

[GaryN]

I asked:

Anyone know where this is from, none of the images I've seen mention the location

The Orongo Complex, northwest Namibia, a region that includes the Brandberg Massif.

[seasmith]

Hi Gary,

I think that's usually spelled Erongo.

Orongo is Easter Islands,
(where they have some great 'plasma eyes' carvings)...



http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Orongo+C ... x=58&ty=96


orobungobungo∞

[GaryN]

Ooops. Thanks s. The Orongo figures are interesting too though, wasn't familiar with those, so learned something from my mistake, and your correction!

Omak Lake, Washington, balancing rock, a granite glacial erratic. How so many rocks seem to end up perfectly balanced on pedestals seems to defy chance to me, and of course very long time scales are required to erode away the material that surrounded it originally.



Girraween National Park, Australia


Those glaciers sure got around.

[kyomu2010]

This may be of help:
If it is correct that 10-12,000 years ago Earth occupied a position in close proximity to Saturn (yet at a distance much further from the Sun), and that this arrangement was catastrophically disrupted so that the Earth ( and other planets) were sent 'tumbling' through the Solar system in chaotic paths; it is quite possible that the Earth experienced severe global cooling. This cooling may have given rise to glaciation on a planetary scale as recorded in geological studies of the past as well as the current evidence of the remnants of that glaciation (polar icecaps, Greenland Glacier etc.). Once the Earth reached it's current position in close proximity to the Sun, the glaciation receded to its present state.

[kyomu2010]

On the question of the origin of erratics:

If it is correct that in the distant past ( approximately 10-12 000 years ago) the planet Venus moved in a chaotic path within the Solar System such that it approached close to the Earth, it is possible that unusual field effects occurred. If it is accepted that each planet in a star's electric field ( or circuit) produces a characteristic electromagnetic field, then when planets come into close proximity, the individual planetary fields will overlap and interfere ( just like the ripples from two stones thrown close together into a still lake). If it is also accepted that the Universe is 'saturated' with plasma, then the combination of planetary field interference along with intense plasma concentration within planetary double layers ( such as the Earth's Van Allen belt), may cause disruption of the planetary gravitational field. Levitation ( and subsequent relocation ) of large objects such as boulders may occur-thus giving rise to the erratics found today.
It should be noted that this type of field effect is commonly associated with tornados. For example, undamaged cars are often found lying on the top of (similarly undamaged) wooden fences. It is as if the vehicles were gently placed there. This is not what one would expect if the vehicle had been 'tossed' by highly energetic winds!

[moses]

This cooling may have given rise to glaciation on a planetary scale...
kyomu2010
To produce glaciation we need a lot of snow, and to get this snow we need evaporation. If the Earth was suddenly cooled there would be little evaporation.

However if the Earth was in a very elliptical orbit around the Sun then there would be huge amounts of evaporation as the Earth was near the Sun and enormous amounts of snow as the Earth left the vicinity of the Sun as the equatorial regions would still be evaporating whilst the polar regions would be depositing this evaporated and transported water vapour.

Other possibilities exist to explain the ice, but periodically warming the oceans seems the most likely scenario.
Cheers,
Mo