Mars - Water

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:21 am

When the WWE (World Wrestling Entertainment) was the WWWF (World Wide Wrestling Federation), I was a fan, lost interest with the shift to the Dark Side. And no, I was never a BCR fan! I really think we need some Germans though.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby tholden » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:11 pm

http://gizmodo.com/394442/nasa-phoenix- ... er-on-mars

The landing thrusters aboard the Phoenix Mars Lander apparently did their job and them some. First, they successfully fired and gently deposited the multimillion dollar probe on the surface of the Red Planet. And then, by doing just that, they blew away three to six inches of Martian soil to reveal the shiny, slick face of what could be a large ice patch. Brendan Fraser's frozen caveman body was noticeably absent from this block of ice, but NASA scientists were elated anyway. The discovery reaffirms that the landing was indeed a bull's eye, akin to the Opportunity rover "hole in one" crater touchdown more than four years ago.

"It's the consensus of all of us that we have found ice," said Peter Smith of the University of Arizona, Tucson, which is leading the Phoenix project with help from NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab. "It's shiny and smooth - it's absolutely astounding!" he said. Exclamation points aside, Smith did concede, as scientists are wont to do, that the gleaming slab could be "something else," but the leading interpretation is that future tests will confirm it is ice.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby bdw000 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:38 am

Joe Keenan wrote: The "we might have a short circuit when we run the next test" line seems like a attempt to immunize the test from failure. If it is ice, they'll rightly crow, if it's not ice they have a pre-established thread to immunize the failure.


My feelings exactly.

Is anyone other than me put off by the shameless PR campaign coming out from NASA? Pictures from a Mars rover (you have them here on this sight) showed the white stuff under the soil, they knew it was there before they dug, then they then act surprised and squeal like a bunch of adolescent girls at a Bay City Rollers concert when they see more white stuff. W need some staid Germans to start running the place again.


It is my opinion that this sort of scenario is not science, but entertainment. It does not even rise to the level of "science by press conference." It is strictly entertainment for the masses.

On the philosophical side, the theory of science has as one of its foundations the idea of "repeatability." Generally speaking, little that NASA does is "repeatable." We have to take everything they say on faith. No one, not the lowliest grad student, not the most famous physicist or astronomer, can say "gee, I think I'll double-check what NASA is doing on Mars and see if I can get the same answer." NASA could lie about anything and there is absolutely no way for any of us to use the "scientific method" to verify or refute whatever they say.

And on a world where any government is known to lie aobut anything whenever it pleases, well, what it boils down to is faith.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby ElecGeekMom » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:52 am

Here's a dumb question: Is it possible that water vapor could have been part of the exhaust that was present as the probe touched down?
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:07 pm

ElecGeekMom wrote:Here's a dumb question: Is it possible that water vapor could have been part of the exhaust that was present as the probe touched down?

That would be so funny. :oops:

Am I right in thinking that when the USSR sent its first probe to Venus(?) that the high temperature took them by surprise and it melted the lens cap onto the camera before melting the entire probe, so they didn't get any photos. They sent up another probe better equipped to withstand the heat and with a gizmo to flick off the lens cap an instant before touchdown. All this they hoped would give them just enough time to get off a couple of photos. The gizmo worked and flicked off the lens cap but unfortunately the cap landed right below the camera so they got a couple of photos of the cap on the surface of Venus before everything got burned.
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Ben D » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:25 pm

It is difficult to understand why anyone would doubt that there is water on mars,...it seems water is ubiquitous,...comets, planets, moons, etc..

How many of you would have considered that there would be water in Mercury's atmosphere?

MESSENGER Scientists 'Astonished' to Find Water in Mercury's Thin Atmosphere
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby bdw000 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:45 am

ElecGeekMom wrote:Here's a dumb question: Is it possible that water vapor could have been part of the exhaust that was present as the probe touched down?


I'm no rocket scientist, but aren't liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen commonly used as rocket fuel by NASA?

No idea what fuel the Phoenix used to land.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby rduke » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:01 pm

Ben D wrote:It is difficult to understand why anyone would doubt that there is water on mars,...it seems water is ubiquitous,...comets, planets, moons, etc..

How many of you would have considered that there would be water in Mercury's atmosphere?

MESSENGER Scientists 'Astonished' to Find Water in Mercury's Thin Atmosphere



I agree.

I must say I was surprised for a second when they announced that finding!, although no where near as shocked as "they" were and are about it I am sure.

I bet there have been a few sleepless nights and will continue to be a few of them until the issue is expanded to include the electric nature of the universe, or they conveniently brush it under the rug with the rest of the mountain of evidences that don't fit.... I mean one of their explanations is that there may be ICE at the poles!!.. yeah the planet has temps in the 400c range and there is ice at the poles... :roll: :roll: :roll: Our planet has 40c temps and we are running Air Conditioners up to our poles so the ice does not melt away... :lol:

I do not visit wikipediea --- but perhaps someone should place this information regarding water on mercury and how it is possible and a predicted outcome of the EUP...
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Re: Martian Water "flowing"?

Unread postby Solar » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:51 am

Remember this Michael?

This subject reminds me of a debate that was had some while back in the old forum regarding water on Mars.

Image

The above photo was taken from early HiRise releases and I zoomed and cropped this section from a larger area with the same pattern continuosly over a longer sloping region at the Martian south pole. It seems to show a 'flowing' downhill dynamic.

I've checked at HiRise and can no longer find it? Do you still have the original image or link @ HiRise Michael?

My contention at that time was that this was not 'muddy' H2O running downhill but sublimation along the lowest, therefore most shallow and less dense, portions between the 'groves' as a result of the Martian spring. This revealed the same blackend iron rich soil that is normally seen to blow and generate 'geyser-like' dust fans. But no such blowing appears to have occured in the photo. Interesting nonetheless.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby moses » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:37 pm

My contention at that time was that this was not 'muddy' H2O running downhill but sublimation along the lowest, therefore most shallow and less dense, portions between the 'groves' as a result of the Martian spring. This revealed the same blackend iron rich soil that is normally seen to blow and generate 'geyser-like' dust fans. But no such blowing appears to have occured in the photo. Interesting nonetheless. Solar
Would you care to explain this again ? Is it water sublimating or CO2 ?
The black area seems to have warmed wrt the white area, as one would
expect, and turned somewhat liquid. But I don't understand exactly what
you are saying.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Solar » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:58 am

moses wrote:Would you care to explain this again ? Is it water sublimating or CO2 ?
The black area seems to have warmed wrt the white area, as one would
expect, and turned somewhat liquid. But I don't understand exactly what
you are saying.
Mo


I think it's sublimating CO2 ice leaving that pattern as it sublimates and 'retreats'. I don't think the pattern is the result of anything liquid 'running down the slope of a hill'. Better?
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Solar » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:26 am

I think it's sublimating CO2 ice leaving that pattern as it sublimates and 'retreats'. I don't think the pattern is the result of anything liquid 'running down the slope of a hill'. Better?


And now that I've said that take a look at these pics I made with HiRise IAS Viewer from "Translucent Ice in the North Polar Region"

Image

That does seem to be 'flowing' along the ridges of some of these 'ice dunes'. Hmmmm...
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Solar » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:04 am

Here is another montage of dune ridges from a second "Translucent Ice in the North Polar Region":

Image
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby GaryN » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:06 am

Re: Translucent ice images.
Dendrites on one side of the ridge, with diffuse 'shadows' on the other side. Simply shows the direction of the plasma flows to me.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby moses » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:11 pm

Am I right : The ridges were electrically formed and so there
is a sharp drop with grooves on one side of the ridge. Presumably
the CO2 has sublimated from many of these grooves, making it
appear that the balck substance at the top of the ridge has
liquified and run down the grooves.
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