Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby Beata-at-home » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:22 am

Passive vs. Resistive Organisms, Concious Mind and the Resistive Will

I would say there are two categories of “organisms.” One is passive, and one is resistive. The passive category includes plants and “non-living” “organisms,” like atoms, inorganic compounds, stars, and galaxies. I call this category passive because all things included cannot make decisions contrary to their circumstances. All “decisions” made by these things are reactions determined by set laws of nature...Some of which do not change. (But Rupert is right. We seriously need to re-examine many of the “laws” and “constants” we take for granted to be governing and unchanging.) The “decision” to grow from a seed into a large tree has to do entirely with chemical and environmental influences on the pre-programmed seed. The patterns of growth are reactions to those circumstances, which are entirely predictable (as long as we know what conditions affect any of the particular reactions). All outcomes would be the same from one “passive organism” to the next, if identical seeds or stars, etc. were placed in entirely the same set of circumstances. There is a program and a method, and there is much repetition and predictability within this category of "organism".

On the other hand, there is the category of “resistive organisms,” which includes animals and humans. These both can and do act or react according to their wills, which is not always entirely dependent on particular circumstances. A plant that is hungry, will eat, given “food.” A hungry person may or may not eat the food available, depending on his will and decision to act favorably or against what nature is dictating. That is the essentiial difference between the two types of “organisms.” This is the divergence. The “mind” has two ways to function: as a passivie recipeint and reactor, or as an active interventor and un-natural resistor. Because of this, I submit that there are two distinct categories of “organisms” if we must use that term. The “passive organisms” have no will or choice, but are driven entirely by circumstance; they do not have the same “mind” or ability as “resistive organisms” do. They are predictable, whereas the “resistive organisms” are not always predictable, and I would say that humans are much less predictable than animals. Some men say they can never understand women, but that is probably another issue all together.

There has been quite a lot of research with artificial frequency modulation exposure affecting human behavior, vision, thought, and health. My guess is that we naturally have the ability to override or ignore some of the frequencies (or otherwise suggestions) we normally are exposed to, in order to "resist" nature. Perhaps we prefer to select one frequency (suggestion) over another.

Conciousness is of course awareness, which I do agree that in order to have a reaction, there must be a sort of “conciousness.” However, just because there can be a reaction, and perhaps therefore a “conciousness,” per se, I would not conclude that there is therefore an active and useable will associated with it, not one that would produce actions and reactions contra to the environmental circumstances.

I will leave the definition of soul alone for now, but it might also need more refining, particularly when associating it with passive organisms, or even with the stars and universe.

I would love to read your thoughts on this! ;)
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby moses » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:37 pm

No - the mind is totally predictable. It is the ego of people that think that the mind has free will to choose. It is consciousness, or more accurately, experiencing, that has freedom. And until the ego and the self are diminished, so that true free action can come from experiencing, humans are no more than robots.
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby Beata-at-home » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:36 pm

I don't quite understand what you are saying, Mo. Are you saying that we have to deny our selves, or our rationale, in order to experience ourselves in fuller consciousness? I know that sounds like eastern religion, and I do not want to get into religion, but what you are saying seems to be a contradiction. It seems you are saying that we have to deny our senses of common sense and reason in order to experience--what? Life without reason? I do not understand it. Reasoning demands choices, and vice-versa. Which meaning of "ego" did you intend to use? I thought a robot is one who does not choose. It seems you have said that until we are free from thinking that we can choose, and realize that we can't, then we will cease from being robots???

I do agree that the mind is predictable to a certain extent. MInd games and behavior conditioning will generally work, but if you have ever participated in them, you know the outcome is not always what you had expected. In other words, the mind is not always predictable. :D
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby moses » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:39 pm

Are you saying that we have to deny our selves, or our rationale, in order to experience ourselves in fuller consciousness?
Yes.

Reason comes in two forms. A robot reasons but only follows conditioning. But there is a reasoning that is a quality of experiencing. This reasoning, or understanding, comes strongly to the fore only when the robotic reasoning has died away. You may claim that your action is due to this quality of experiencing, but to be certain, the robotic decisions must have fallen away.
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby Beata-at-home » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:41 pm

I agree that there are two types of reactions, and two types of "minds" as said in my original post (passive vs. resistive organisms). This may be what you mean by your two types of “reasoning.”

Robotic “choices” are preprogrammed decisions that are dependent on predetermined conditions the robot will encounter. Robots do not have the choice or ability to override the program. They cannot respond well or at all to any conditions other than those which were predetermined.

The way I understand consciousness is that the more aware we are, the more of it we have. So, to be fully awake, aware, or conscious, we need to be fully alert and able to make intelligent, informed decisions based on our more accurate knowledge of the situation. If we throw out part of our reasoning ability, even the “robotic reasoning,” our decisions become less informed, less aware, and less conscious.


We can't throw out any data, because we must process all of it eventually.


For instance, we can choose to ignore name-calling for a while, to avoid conflict or to bluff indifference. But we end up storing that event or person as “offensive” or something to that effect, somewhere in our minds. We associate the name-caller with that thought (a decision or conclusion we have drawn), even if we choose to not react outwardly against it or show our emotions. We may even decide to find out more about the person, out of sympathy, and discover what has driven him to be hurtful.


Part of what makes us unique is that we can choose which data or sets of data to highlight or respond to. We prioritize, not always out of necessity or by nature. That begins the process of our choices of reactions.


Predictability—If the mind were totally predictable, wouldn't life be boring? We would never have to guess who would marry whom and how the next ballgame would be played out, etc. We would not disagree. We would never have to say, “Don't you know what you are doing?!” Or, “Why did I ever do that?!” There would be no lunatics in the world. Everyone would make sense all the time. I think the mind is not predictable because we do make choices that aren't always reasonable to others—and sometimes, in hindsight, our decisions don't even make sense to ourselves, though we would probably make up a lot of excuses.


This is also why I believe that the sun does not have a "mind" if we were to imply that its "mind" were the same kind as ours. The sun, as Thunderbolts is revealing, is very predictable. All we have to do is understand the program that operates the sun and the conditions it is exposed to.
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby moses » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:27 pm

There are two types of action, one comes from the physical, which is self, and the other comes from the non-physical, which is experiencing. The materialist trained scientist can not come to this because getting something from nothing is not allowed. And there is many a scientist who completely believes this and yet believe in some sort of god or divinity. The two beliefs are in conflict.

You see that brain nerve impulses somehow and somewhere in the brain get converted into actual smell or light or bitterness, etc, which when one truly stops to think about it, these things are non-physical but actually exist. These things are not nerve impulses, they are completely different, they are experiencing. And if one ever realises this then this is a revolution, as simple as it is. Because these things, experiencing, is what makes us truly alive. It is not the nerve impulses that make us alive, it is the experiencing induced by the nerve impulses.

And once one sees that there is a non-physical actuality then one can start considering the qualities and abilities of this actuality. And first one sees that seeing how this actuality responds to nerve impulses, perhaps this actuality can produce nerve impulses. Something from nothing, but a nothing with properties and an essential reality. And one of these properties is understanding or reasoning and it is action that arises from this understanding that is extraordinarily different.

One can then consider other abilities and qualities of experiencing. There is the ability to transfer the experiencing of another creature into one's experiencing and so mind read, but this includes the ability to access this experiencing at any point in time. This follows naturally from the non-physical nature of experiencing. Truly extraordinary.
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby Plasmatic » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:05 am

Your distinction of passive and resistive is an example of what happens when mystics like Sheldrake try to destroy a valid concept by renaming it another concepts label that already presupposes the distinction he was trying to obliterate. You are simply describing the difference between the animate and the inanimate.

Facts don't go away because mystics choose to pretend that the concepts used to describe them should be called something else. The result is you end up smuggling the conceptual referents back in to your claims as a stolen concept.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby Beata-at-home » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:22 pm

:)
Plasmatic: That is the reason I had to post. I am afraid that the "Consciousness" and "Organism" themes used by some are too general, and will be misused and greatly misunderstood.

Mo:
Fascinating to me are the studies of frequency affecting thought, generating vision and generating hearing in the deaf, etc. I understand that we are also able to create "memory" and I suppose that mind reading can be similarly accomplished. (What's the frequency?!--I guess mind reading and healing could/should become as easy as tuning a radio.) But of course, I would agree that thought and experience is more than matter and frequencies alone. There is the reasoning factor and belief factor that comes in to play, having to do with memory and understanding and spirit.
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Re: Organisms, Conciousness, Will, and Predictability

Unread postby moses » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:16 pm

There is a kundalini-derived ability to sense other creatures thoughts and emotions. This is thus a type of mind-reading. And, indeed, there may be other ways to get sensations of others thoughts and feelings.

However, I am suggesting that one can directly access the experiencing of another creature, and at any time. Thus this is not extrasensory perception but direct experiencing to experiencing. So not a kundalini thing, but something anyone can do, but once this ability is reached, access to one's past is a natural outcome, and this of course includes access to the traumatic past right back to one's conception. This access and clearance of these past unresolved traumas will allow a vast increase in the flow of kundalini.

But both the repression of past unresolved trauma, and the breaking through to consciousness of this trauma, and even the pressure for these trauma to be expressed, all hamper the ability for the experiencing to experiencing contact. It is written that the Buddha sat under a tree for 49 days, so perhaps what I am suggesting might take a bit of practice.
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