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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Mars - Water

Mars - Water

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Mars - Water

Unread postby Tzunamii » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:06 pm

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio ... 4208.story

"A soil sample was cooked twice in one of Phoenix's eight ovens over the last few days, according to William Boynton, The first test reached 95 degrees, the second 350 degrees.
"Had there been any ice, it would have melted," Boynton said. "We saw no water in the soil whatsoever."



"It looks like we clipped the edge of the top of a polygon," said Ray Arvidson, the lead scientist for the lander's robotic arm."
The polygonal land forms -- small mounds bounded by shallow trenches -- are similar to features that scientists have seen in the Arctic on Earth caused by subsurface ice."


Any relation to other polygonal observences in the solar system?

"This could be the tip of the iceberg," Arvidson said."

Of course if it were, then they would have found water ;)
Perhaps just a posative attitude.
Hope they find Something worth the $$ invested.
Last edited by nick c on Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Thread title changed to accomodate merged posts
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Solar » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:04 pm

"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby David Talbott » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:59 am

Please note that I've posted a few clarifications in the TPOD forum:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=774&p=7174#p7174

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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby viscount aero » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:40 pm

This is starting to look like the "dirty snowball" thing all over again but on a planetary scale.

Mars is probably dead and never with biologic life ever in it's history. The sterile surface and soil is looking more and more abiotic. And as the years of reports and findings push the "age of water" farther and farther back into the Martian past, the entire notion of it ever being there is becoming very reaching and not believable anymore.

They're not following the water but following the dirt. And if the belief that only 1/5 it's surface ever had any sustainable water, with such brevity of existence, then I think it's time to get out denial and start to entertain the idea that Mars is simply a dead world; beautifully desolate, but dead.


I still hold out hope for geothermal water somewhere within the crust. They may have to actually drill a well somewhere or explore caves. But that is for another century, not this one.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby substance » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:50 pm

They seem to have actually found "water that had been chemically bound to elements of the soil long ago" with a pH of over 8, so that "the soil was similar to what people would find in their back yards on Earth" and "you could probably grow asparagus, but not strawberries". Of course that doesn`t necessarily contradict Plasma Theory, but still I wonder about the latter statement, about the asparagus :lol:
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby bdw000 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:47 am

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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby substance » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:39 am

I thought it was the salts in the soil that pointed at water interaction in the past, but hey, I`m no scientist. I`m even still in highschool. ;)
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Solar » Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:25 pm

"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby bdw000 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:19 am

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"Behind the Water Ice Decision"

Unread postby Solar » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:52 am

"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:28 pm

We landed where we did on Mars because, we had evidence of "ice" sublimating on Mars, satellites in orbit showed this. We land a 400 million dollar piece of equipment on Mars to detect, with scientific instruments, water. While scratching the soil to get a sample, white stuff is uncovered, it's believed to be "ice." Great! We happen to have a 400 million dollar piece of equipment there to test the white stuff. Should be pretty cut and dry, drop a shovel full of white stuff in over, heat to above 212 deg f, "see" H20 via mass spec or gc. No, we don't do that, we crow about "ice" sublimating 6 feet infront of the landers camera, so what? Why is that better than what we saw from space? It's not of course.

What do we have, "assurances" that at some time in the past the soil of Mars was in contact with water, What? What concentration was the water discovered on Mars at? What PPM, or, PPB? Forget the soil, dump the white stuff in and see what it is. If it's water there will be no need to talk about the soil "being associated with water" in some distant past. The reading will be 1,000,000 PPM, water. They won't of course, because, it's not water. They're setting the stage for further exploration, they're establishing the needed narrative thread. They haven't found Jack yet, if they had they'ld be slapping each other on the back. Let's not forget why they're looking for water, they need it for astronauts, they need millions of gallons, they haven't found it.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby bdw000 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:21 am

Thank you Joe Keenan for putting into words what I was unable to.

I certainly do not know if there is water on Mars or not. And the blog entry above seemed to answer most of my questions, before Joe did some thinking for me.

As Joe says, if all of the "white stuff" is water ice, they should be able to put a shovel full into their oven and get a very, very positive, unambiguous result for water. But they haven't.

Since water has to be the number one priority here, to drag their feet on this issue just makes me agree with Joe that they haven't found any, despite all the pictures.

To keep using the word water whenever they open their mouths appears (I am being kind here!) like propaganda, since they have used the word every way they can except to say "we have found it. Period."

I think Joe is right: if they really were positive about it being water, NASA tv would have endless hours of them literally slapping their backs and jumping up and down.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Ben D » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:50 am

I don't like the sound of this!

It could be that results are so unexpected that the lid is closing on any future delivery of findings into the public domain.

Not that this should be unexpected if 'interesting' results are emanating, but it is frustrating for those of us not in the know!

Phoenix To Bake Ice-rich Sample Next Week

July 2, 2008 -- The next sample delivered to NASA’s Phoenix Mars Lander’s Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer (TEGA) will be ice-rich.

A team of engineers and scientists assembled to assess TEGA after a short circuit was discovered in the instrument has concluded that another short circuit could occur when the oven is used again.

“Since there is no way to assess the probability of another short circuit occurring, we are taking the most conservative approach and treating the next sample to TEGA as possibly our last,” said Peter Smith, Phoenix’s principal investigator.

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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:24 pm

Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm in the middle of a WWE story line? The "we might have a short circuit when we run the next test" line seems like a attempt to immunize the test from failure. If it is ice, they'll rightly crow, if it's not ice they have a pre-established thread to immunize the failure. Is anyone other than me put off by the shameless PR campaign coming out from NASA? Pictures from a Mars rover (you have them here on this sight) showed the white stuff under the soil, they knew it was there before they dug, then they then act surprised and squeal like a bunch of adolescent girls at a Bay City Rollers concert when they see more white stuff. W need some staid Germans to start running the place again.
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Re: "No signs of water yet from Mars lander"

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:49 pm

If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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