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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - what is charge?

what is charge?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:04 am

First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby Solar » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:55 pm

I keep wondering where are the fundamentals in all of this?

The word/idea of 'charge' refers to the concept of 'an aggregate marshaling of force or forces'.
The concept of “charge” is most often used in conjunction with the idea of 'polarity'.

The concept of 'polarity' then infers 'unequal effects' of opposing principles or, 'to separate into opposites'. Thus, it is often said that the 'polarity' of “charge” is either “positive” or “negative”. With those concepts one then has the divergence necessary for contrasting in establishing the relationship.

Often the Mind reasons via the contrast of ideas, experiences or concepts. To then say that 'charge' may be either 'positive' or 'negative' infers that such a conclusion is reached via contrasting the relationship of that duality.

However, and unfortunately, the state or condition of 'potential' is all too often left out of the equation with such contrasting. The tendency seems to be that one contrast the duality of the extreme opposites only.

The concept of 'potential', which also means “latent”, in relation to 'charge' is constantly used to asses the 'difference' in voltage (electromotive force) between to areas. Yet, when considering the electrical activity that appears to be a fully active aspect of the universe, the idea is then put forth that the 'potential' of 'charge' is not there. Unnecessary to ponder even.

That is a contradiction.

Without the 'potential difference' there could be no electromotive force put into action 'in', 'through', or 'across'.

If I had to define it I would say that “charge” is 'polarized potential'. Yet as soon as it is 'polarized' it is no longer 'uniformly distributed' as 'potential' but becomes likened to an aggregate 'flow' or 'current'.

“Charge” would be the word-concept used in recognizing the electrical relations of aggregate polarization of 'potential' via perception of the presence of the electromotive force in action.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:56 am

First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby webolife » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:38 am

My broken record usage of vectors plays well for me here for me here for me here...
Centropic vectors model potential and force. Vector density increases with reduction of radius to the centroid of a system, so any charged entity at any scale therefore exhibits greater "charge" near its centroid. The interaction of two fields yields effects of either attraction or repulsion depending upon the interaction, whether the fields are adjacent, overlapping, included, etc. due to vector addition. This aspect of charge can be understood as an analog to gravity. "Polarity" is just a way of describing vector directionality, and simply explains why the center of a system is "oppositely" charged to the periphery. The energy of motion required to balance the centropic field (ie. to prevent ultimate collapse of the system at any scale) is what I'm calling spin... angular momentum... on the "What is spin?" thread, others are posting all sorts of additional attributes of "spin" which I'm sure must be valid, but mostly confuse me. :? Effects of "charge" involve both the potential (centropic vectoral) and kinetic (spin) aspects of this interaction, typically referred to as energy... eg. Voltage and "current". I have a problem with the use of "current" to describe "movement" of charge across a field, because I understand that charge can be transferred virtually instantaneously through a low-resistive conduit, be it a conducting wire or the "vacuum" of space. Hence, although material media transfer charge necessarily at a finite speed due to resistant factors, the basic mechanism for the communication of charge across distance requires no medium. As I'm coming to understand it, magnetic fields associated with (caused by or causing) charge transfer also affect the accumulation of charge, as in plasma pinching. Astronomically, this may be the birth canal of stars... so at another fundamental level, charge and mass are analogs.
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what is fundamental?

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:30 pm

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Re: what is fundamental?

Unread postby StevenO » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:50 pm

First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:43 pm

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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:00 am

I always thought it was self evident that everything is in motion. Nothing is ever "frozen", like I have stated before, even electrons never stop spinning, never, no matter how low the temperature. Ovbiously charge and motion are two sides of the same coin. That appears to be self evident.
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Motion

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:47 pm

But the question is: Is matter motion? Also, is space motion? Is time motion? Space and time appear to be the necessary constituents of motion in reciprocal relationship. So then back to matter. Is matter motion. Is energy motion? Etc.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:00 pm

If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StefanR » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:11 am

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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby querious » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:17 pm

As StevenO correctly points out, charge has the dimension of space (length). I've recently come up with an explanation as to WHY that is. The well-known formula for energy of an EM wave, E=hf, indicates that in any photon, there is only 1 variable, the frequency. But all waves need 3 magnitudes to describe them: Speed of propagation, frequency (from which wavelength is trivially derived if the propagation speed is known), and AMPLITUDE. What Plank's constant is telling us is that amplitude (it's E-field component) is fixed AND quantized, no matter the frequency.

In the following analysis, s=space, t=time

Now, "h" has the dimensions of angular momentum, mass t^3/s^3 X velocity s/t X radius s/1 = t^2/s. But it also has the dimensions of Energy (t/s) X time (t), again, t^2/s.

Looking at the formula for the Hartree Energy (the "atomic unit" of energy), we have ke^2 / Bohr radius. These are the right dimensions for energy because Coulomb's constant k (1/4*pi*epsilon) times e^2 has the dimension of time. (permittivity is farads s^3/t per meter, s^3/t / s = s^2/t)

So we have an energy (ke^2(t) / bohr radius(s)) multiplied by a time (actually, it's the Dewey Larson unit of time, 1.51983 X 10<sup>-16</sup>sec), which is exactly Plank's constant, h.

Back to the "charge is space": The fine structure constant is the dimensionless RATIO of wavelength to AMPLITUDE of the Rydberg fundamental frequency.
Of course, if you take a half-wavelength of it, curl it into a circle, and multiply by the fine structure constant (alpha), you get the Bohr circumference. Multiplied by alpha squared, you get the compton wavelength X 2pi, and multiplied by alpha^3, you get the classical electron radius.

So charge is the spacial AMPLITUDE COMPONENT of all photons. Of course, this is why QED deals in probabilities: the Amplitude is a function of phase.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby junglelord » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:03 am

As StevenO correctly points out, charge has the dimension of space (Length)

This is a perfect place to start with new math.

All charge is distributed. Therefore e becomes e^2 in APM. There are only three fundamental forces. Plancks Length is the angular momentum of the electron. That is an example of a quantum constant.
http://www.16pi2.com/files/NewFoundationPhysics.pdf

I believe that APM is correct. There are two elemental charges. They are both distributed. EM charge also plays the role of Strong Force. The relationship between EM and Electrostatic charge creates the Weak Force.

Charge is part of a 5-D reality, three of length, two of frequency. Quantum Space-Resonace is distributed, like charge.
Electrostatic charge is a direct result of this 5-D and is the same for all subatomic units. EM is directly related to conductance of the Aether and angular momentum, and therefore is different for each subatomic unit and is directly proportional to its relative mass.

Electrostatic charge has spherical geometry, EM has toroid geometry...electrons behave as waving enities. Both neutrons and protons have Quantum Fine Structure like Electrons.
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby StevenO » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:59 am

First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
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Re: what is charge?

Unread postby webolife » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:29 pm

I second that motion, StephenO.
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