The Search for Water on Mars Continues

[bdw000]

CNN is today reporting that NASA says the white patches in the trench are sublimating away, thus, it must be "ice."

What KIND of ice, is, of course, left open.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/06/2 ... index.html


Look forward to comments from you experts.

[rduke]

Honestly...

When I read this POD I kinda winced a little bit.

It is a big wager... it is not all in at all... but it is still a respectable sum on a somewhat blind shot.

The Electric Universe Paradigm has been on a total tear over the last few years that has been very exciting... week after week and month after month, new findings and observations are piling on so deep... I would hate to see that streak broken with something as insignificant as a tiny bit of water at the poles...

I think I understand why EUP would predict that no water will be found... (it is very interesting that no signs of water at all were found in their first few tests even withstanding their excuses)

Also considering the olivine deposits and other such things that exclude existence with water about....And couple that with NASA/Mainstream bungling over the years, and their hardcore predictions of water being found everywhere ...on everything.
It is understandable to take the opposite side of the field and life nary a finger to claim victory...

If right... its a grand slam... yet... it may just be a tiny bit of water...and its at least an 0-1 count...

[Carl Smith]

Sorry ... couldn't resist the temptation ....

[Tina]

Sorry ... couldn't resist the temptation ....

Don't be sorry!

The Photographic evidence is compelling We have been chilling Mars Bars in Australia for years cause we knew there was ice on Mars and we wanted to keep it that way.

http://www.decentlyexposed.com.au/?p=566

[Tina]

Honestly...

When I read this POD I kinda winced a little bit......

I think I understand why EUP would predict that no water will be found... (it is very interesting that no signs of water at all were found in their first few tests even withstanding their excuses)...

You seem to doubt the likelihood of water on Mars. However there may be an explanation that falls within the EU model. This article discusses the proposition that recent volcanic activity on Mars could be the cause.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080620/ ... 1153a.html

[David Talbott]

Honestly...

When I read this POD I kinda winced a little bit.

It is a big wager... it is not all in at all... but it is still a respectable sum on a somewhat blind shot.

One thing we have to be wary of is holding Wal Thornhill accountable for predictions made independently by others. When we decided to put the author's name to the TPODs the intent was to allow authors to offer independent interpretations or predictions without the failure of a prediction being held against Wal himself, who is for good reason the one most clearly identified with "the Electric Universe." The basic rule is: if it's not on Wal's website, it's not his prediction, unless he himself has placed a prediction into the public record through a documented private or public mailing or forum.

Keep in mind as well that there is nothing in Steve Smith's expectation that follows from a fundamental tenet of the Electric Universe. It came from his own research. In recent years, Steve has gained an impressive knowledge of Martian geology. He based his prediction largely on an analysis of Martian data. But the issue is a bit more complicated because he was also influenced by the hypothesis of a hemispheric discharge on Mars, which did not originate with Wal either, but with me.

The north-hemispheric discharge hypothesis has its origin in the "Saturnian" reconstruction. My impression since offering that hypothesis in the late nineties is that the data returned from Mars since then fits exceptionally well with the interpretation: Material up to two or more kilometers deep was excavated from the northern hemisphere electrically, with significant portions (but far from all) of the rubble and sediment falling back to the surface or implanted in layers electrically. The hypothesis itself arose from the historical argument.

In fact, the argument is very close to the bedrock of the Saturn hypothesis, relating directly to the conical crowns worn by the great heroes of antiquity, in particular the conical crown of Egyptian warrior-kings, which can be examined in exquisite detail. See my comments at:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... f=13&t=416

And see my comments on north polar crustal depth at
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... =269#p4394

The reasoning anticipates a hemispheric distribution of sediment and rubble on Mars, all of which will remain enigmatic when interpreted through the lens of standard theory. The hypothesis gives no reason to believe that all of the water or ice excavated would have been separated from the accompanying debris in such a way as to remove all of the ice from the resulting rubble fields. IF water was present prior to the cataclysmic events, one might REASONABLY ANTICIPATE vast fields of debris exhibiting an enigma: chunks of ice embedded in soil that shows no chemical signature of alteration by water. This theoretical possibility would follow logically from the hemispheric discharge hypothesis, but such a finding would emerge as a deep mystery under conventional views of Martian geology.

From the beginning of the Phoenix lander mission, that's what I've been looking for--not as a published prediction, but as a possibility that, if documented, would add additional support for the hemispheric discharge hypothesis. As far as the historical underpinnings of my own deductions, I could not be more confident. May Zeus strike me down if wrong: no data returned from the Phoenix lander or any other mission will contradict the hemispheric discharge hypothesis. As I said, this claim is very close to the core of the Saturnian reconstruction, while any conclusions relating to the presence of water would involve many conjectures as to original conditions. Considerations of this sort are the basis of my admonition to others that we need to do our best to identify levels of confidence when dealing with diverse aspects of the Saturnian reconstruction.

IF the lander is imaging WATER ice exposed by scooping the shallow trench, the mystery of its chemistry will complement the larger quandaries anticipated by the hemispheric discharge hypothesis: A rubble field, revealing incongruous mixes of chemistry, is all the Phoenix lander is going to see, wherever it looks.

That is MY prediction, not Wal's, and not Steve Smith's, and we need to keep the signatures to various predictions clearly in mind when issues of this sort come up.

David Talbott

[bdw000]

Hey look: in their mission to detect water on mars, they TAKE ALONG SOME WATER WITH THEM ! That makes me just a little bit suspicious

Are they still looking for water? The "wet" chemistry looks like it is just using water (brought along) for doing other chemistry tests.

When are they going to say that "we HAVE found water on Mars" (or not) ?





http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoen ... 80623.html

TUCSON, Ariz. -- NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander has delivered a scoop of Martian soil from the "Snow White" trenches to the optical microscope for analysis tomorrow, June 24, the 29th Martian day of the mission, or Sol 29.

And the Phoenix lander will position its Robotic Arm to deliver some of that same scoop of soil for its first wet chemistry experiment on the Red Planet in the next day or two.

Scientists did a diagnostic run today that melted ice to water for Phoenix's first wet chemistry experiment. The water is part of the wet chemistry laboratory and comes from Earth.

The laboratory, not yet used on Mars, is designed to test soil for salts, acidity and other characteristics, much like garden soils are tested on Earth. Phoenix's wet chemistry laboratory is part of the suite of tools called the Microscopy, Electrochemistry and Conductivity Analyzer, or MECA.

"The water in the wet-chemistry cell is frozen, and before we do an experiment we have to make sure that it's totally thawed," Phoenix co-investigator Sam Kounaves of Tufts University, wet chemistry laboratory lead, said. "It's like pouring a known amount of water from a beaker when you're doing a chemistry experiment -- you have to use all the water for your experiment to work."

"We are good to go," said Michael Hecht of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, lead scientist for Phoenix's MECA instrument. "We made liquid water on Mars for the first time for our test."

( BOLD added)

[rduke]

David,

Thank you, I certainly appreciate your attention to this and all subjects. Not to repeat myself, but we seem to be on such a tear lately... I am just one of those that hate to gamble when we are so far ahead.

I do indeed hope Steve is correct... I do love watching them squirm.

[moses]

If there is water on Mars - it might have come from Earth !
The topsoil of Mars might be the result of the last catastrophic
interaction with another planet, which might have been Earth.
If there was interchange of material during that interaction
then water from Earth would join dust and debris from Mars
forming a frozen topsoil. If so then the Mars water will have
signature mineral content of Earth sea water.

That would be nice !
Mo

[nick c]

Moses wrote:

If there is water on Mars - it might have come from Earth !
The topsoil of Mars might be the result of the last catastrophic
interaction with another planet, which might have been Earth.
If there was interchange of material during that interaction
then water from Earth would join dust and debris from Mars
forming a frozen topsoil. If so then the Mars water will have
signature mineral content of Earth sea water.

You are reading my mind! I had thought the same, and never considered the finding of water on Mars to be any sort of test for an EU scenario of planetary catastrophism, given the complexity of the proposed sequence of events. If there were a series of planetary catastrophes, I would expect that the scouring of the Martian northern hemisphere was caused by a larger body than Earth (presumably Saturn) and encounters with Earth, and/or Venus, and/or Moon would have been much less severe and later, that is after the encounters with Saturn had ended. Earth could have deposited water on Mars during these later episodes. Other possibilities include that the water may have come from another body other than Earth or the water may have come from Mars itself, perhaps from the southern hemisphere...
Thornhill has stated that he believes Mars had water (and presumably life) and was a much more hospitable place until its' surface was transformed within the timespan of human memory:

So what can be said of water on Mars in its earlier history? In
the real story of Mars, the god of war, its pre-battle surface
environment was likely to have been much more benign and Earth-
like than it is today. On that basis I predict there was liquid
water on the surface of Mars within the time of modern homo
sapiens and that there is a good chance of finding fossils of
complex life forms on Mars.
http://www.kronia.com/thoth/thoVI-05.txt

If this was the case then the possibility is not excluded that the water discovered may have been what is left of what was once plentiful on Mars.
As Moses states, a comparison of the mineral content with Earth's seawater will shed some light on the source of the Martian water.
In a related matter it would not surprise me if microbial life is discovered by Phoenix or some future Martian probe.

Nick

[nick c]

Just as an addendum to my post above...
we don't even know for certain that water has been discovered on Mars, although the Nasa experts conclude that this explanation best fits the evidence, and this appears to be the case.
Annoucements of this sort have been made before, remember when Pres. Clinton held a press conference on the discovery of remnants of life in a meteorite, and then scientists backed off on the claim?

Nick

[moses]

I would expect that the scouring of the Martian northern
hemisphere was caused by a larger body than Earth
(presumably Saturn) and encounters with Earth, and/or
Venus, and/or Moon would have been much less severe and
later, that is after the encounters with Saturn had ended.
Nick
The theory goes that Mars oscillated between Venus and Earth
in the Saturn System. Thus when it neared Venus a big increase
in current occurred, or the current moved from glow mode into
arc mode , and thus electrically etched the northern hemisphere
of Mars. Presumably then when Mars neared Earth the current
was not as strong, or the distance was further than the nearest
Mars-Venus distance. So that there was little etching of Earth.

I have to consider the possibility of Mars having a very near
collision with some other body. An elliptically shaped etched
area could be formed this way as the other body flew past
Mars. Ill go with either theory at this stage.
Mo

[soulsurvivor]

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/galler ... rte/1.html

[Tina]

"WE HAVE WATER"

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoen ... 80731.html

[badzy]

i've heard that from the news...i think its so insane to waste time discovering if there's a life form on mars..why should we?if we have our own planet to live in?