Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby kell1990 » Sat May 12, 2012 9:52 pm

There is as considerable amount of speculation about many geological features in North Africa, the Middle East, and in East Asia, and in China as well. I think that the countries in all these regions should send a team out to measure the magnetic distribution in their regions. (There is one helluva chart regarding magnetic regionalism somewhere on this board right now. I dare not leave this post to try to find it, lest this entire thing go down the drain, but if someone could post it, it would be much appreciated.)

Even though it is very easy today to measure objects from satellites, there is no substitute for sending out a geologist, a palentologist and a surveyor to these various sites. One to know the land, one to know the previous inhabitants and one to know where you really are. There are other, more specific, specalizations involved here but for the sake of us all it is necessary that we know what really happened all those thousands of years ago, because it will happen again. I guarantee it.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby tholden » Sun May 13, 2012 4:47 am

kell1990 wrote:>THolden:

"Like I say, what I get doing that doesn't look at all like a desert:"

I've seen this image a number of places and I've always wondered what it was. (Assuming that someone isn't playing around with Photoshop.)

Is it your opinion that this is an active civilization, and if it is, then why haven't we heard from them? Surely if there were activity there we'd have picked it up in previous Mars' expeditions.

It seems to me to be the remains of a previous civilization. It seems to show farms, roadways, cities--everything that a civilization needs. Except that it seems to be frozen in time.

What do you think may have happened to it, if it isn't there?


My working hypothesis at this point is that we are seeing megalithic artificial structures and the remains of everything from villages to cities larger than NY or LA on Mars, trees and forests and some of the trees may still be alive... I would bet heavily against finding anything MOVING on Mars today, but you never know. Anybody exploring underground, in those glass tubes, or inside one of those megaliths might encounter leftover rats or cockroaches...

I can't picture leftover humans on Mars. There is more than a little bit of evidence that they saw the storm coming and had no real way to know if anything in our system would remain habitable at all, and boogied.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby webolife » Mon May 14, 2012 1:43 pm

I get what you're saying about the swath of destruction, but the entire earth was reshaped in significant ways, based on the evidences accumulated during this catastrophic event [series], incl Africa... you have to still explain how the elephants and thousands of other animal groups "lived to tell about it."
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed May 16, 2012 3:24 am

Ted said: My working hypothesis at this point is that we are seeing megalithic artificial structures and the remains of everything from villages to cities larger than NY or LA on Mars, trees and forests and some of the trees may still be alive... I would bet heavily against finding anything MOVING on Mars today, but you never know. Anybody exploring underground, in those glass tubes, or inside one of those megaliths might encounter leftover rats or cockroaches...

* I've seen interesting images of possible Mars artifacts, but most such objects seem to be illusions. What look like trees appear to be arachnids in some cases, like forests, and electrically formed vertical structures in single lines in other cases. The latter are shown on one of the Lightning Scarred Mars videos. It'll be interesting to see what the city-like features turn out to be. I suspect that those are illusions too, because I doubt if cities or city builders survived the cataclysms of ten thousand and five thousand years ago. But it would be interesting if they're actually cities, whether inhabited or not.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed May 16, 2012 12:51 pm

* Web, I think you said earlier that you think there is no evolution of one species into another, such as monkeys into humans.
* The Human Genome Project, I take it, has come up with means to determine relatedness of all humans via haplogroups of DNA genes, I think. There are a couple of maps of human migration based on that at this webpage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mitochondrial_DNA_haplogroup.
* If haplogroups can tell the relationships among humans, can it also tell relationships between humans and other primates?
* I think evolution is possible, but that it may be caused, not by mutations, but by a collective unconscious that rewires the DNA according to need, with possibly electric fields playing a strong role.
* Can you give references to sites that have good explanations and evidence for why evolution is not possible?
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby phyllotaxis » Wed May 16, 2012 10:04 pm

Because it's taken me 45 minutes to get through this entire thread, it's too late for me to write the observations and questions I have of the participants--

but before I go to bed I offer this to my friends:

CTRL + A = select all text in cursor text range

Then,

CTRL + C = copy selected text

If you condition yourself to remember to include these elementary commands during any long missive (I do it after every sentence or so), you will have a current backup of everything you are typing available to paste back in
with the PASTE command: CTRL + V

In other words, hitting "CTRL A" (select all) then "CTRL C" (copy selected) will select all of your text then copy it to your invisible clipboard.
If you do this frequently during your typing then even if you lose your work by backing out of the page or something all you do is put your cursor in the empty reply box, hit "CTRL V" (paste from clipboard) and *poof*, everything you had saved appears before you safe and sound.
Even if you don't do it during writing, ALWAYS do it before submitting, so that any site error will not erase your hard-thought and typed work.
Go ahead... try it.

Kindest regards--
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby webolife » Thu May 17, 2012 1:08 am

Let's be clear -- MACROEVOLUTION is described as the undirected process by which all life on the earth has developed from random collisions of organic molecules energized by lightning or some other non-specific energy source, to proteinogenic amino acids [see the Wiki article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acidfor the complexity of this group], to functional proteins [ordered polymers of hundreds of the 20 or so known specific left-handed amino acids, which are coded for by gigantic specific information-filled self-replicating DNA molecules, to complex physiological cellular bodies, all of which are observed to be intricately interdependent, from the lowliest bacteria to multicellular systems of specialized interlocked tissues and organs, via undirected mutations to thousands of specialized families of organisms, all living in the one place in the universe known to hold water in triple-state... and a relatively small amount of it at that.
Insert at every comma in the above paragraph a giant leap of faith in unevidenced mechanisms, eg. your "collective unconscious + electricity", "spontaneous generation" or "panspermia", and you have one variety or another of "evolution" -- now is that all possible? Well as they say "All things are possible..." It is a story of fantastically understated coincidences and highly improbable combinations, which if one does not subscribe to an intelligent being in charge is an extremely religious set of assumptions. Many honest evolutionists are "theistic" to account for the many gaps they know exist in the theory. This "god of the gaps" mentality is the way many common
folks cope with the entrenched evolutionary paradigm in nearly every facet of our modern social structure.
MICROEVOLUTION is described as the process of natural selection by which a prexisting set of various traits in a particular population of organisms is found to be more viable under certain environmental conditions than other sets of traits, adaptation leading to specialization, leading to the inevitable reduction of information passed on to the next generation of that organism to the point that inbreeding causes that particular population loses its ability to interbreed with other members of the original population which have migrated to a different environmental situation, called speciation, ie. the "evolution" of a new species. Microevolution has never been observed [nor is there a known mechanism by which it is able] to produce a new "family" of organisms, since it operates only on prexisting information [the genome] to produce strains of organisms within the information base of the genome.
The only alleged "tie" between these two types of "evolution" is MUTATION, which has only been observed to be deleterious of original information, yet to keep the process rolling must have in fact been positively increasing in information against all probability for eons of time.
Or there was frequent targeted saltation of prexistent information via comets, or intelligent extraterrestrial genetic engineers from time to time.
That is the current theory of evolution, or of its variants...
Why evolution is not possible? Or extremely improbable?
If the improbability of the above scenario[s] is not sufficient enough to answer this:
1. Fossil evidence shows essentially no macroevolution, only extinction of many varieties.
2. Fossils are identifiable as dead versions or variants of things that are alive today.
3. The allegedly "earliest" or deepest fossils are of highly complex organisms.
4. The allegedly "simplest" organisms living today are highly complex.
5. The process of protein synthesis by which all organisms continue to live and reproduce themselves is irreducibly complex. Proteins are required to replicate, decode and transcribe the DNA molecules which contain the information for building those same proteins, and this interdependence is specified for every different cell of every different organism. See for example this you tube animationhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41_Ne5mS2ls -- keeping in mind that every object seen in this animation is a protein that is itself encoded and produced by this process. Both the chicken AND the egg, no way around this.
6. Nucleic acids [DNA, RNA] the essential molecules of life, are highly specific informational systems beyond the complexity of anything that has ever been invented by humans, and yet [according to evolution] must have happened by chance.

Why am I not a "theistic evolutionist"? Because in light of the above list, I think the case for design is way more compelling. Similarities between creatures are easily explained in terms of common design, and differences are underwstandable in terms of intelligent imagination and systems engineering. Why am I not a progressive creationist [aka old earth creationist]? The weakness of the case for radiometric dating methodologies, and the rightful understanding of stratigraphy [topics of other threads, and not of this post] compel me to accept the likelihood of a catastrophic rather than Huttonian or Lyellian earth history.
How is this relevant to an understanding of EU? That will possibly differ for every reader, but for me a unified theory of the universe leads to the recognition of a connected and orderly reality, quite contrary to the purposelessness of both the big bang and evolutionary mentalities. Like the way I feel about my own paradigm shattering theory [other threads, other posts], the EU unifies the "anomalies" of current cosmosviews as "normal" universal forces and processes operating at all scales.

The Discovery Institute, a group that is putting out quite a bit of good information about this, and getting a significant pushback back by evolutionary strongholds:
http://www.discovery.org
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby tholden » Thu May 17, 2012 7:40 pm

Lloyd wrote:
Ted said: My working hypothesis at this point is that we are seeing megalithic artificial structures and the remains of everything from villages to cities larger than NY or LA on Mars, trees and forests and some of the trees may still be alive... I would bet heavily against finding anything MOVING on Mars today, but you never know. Anybody exploring underground, in those glass tubes, or inside one of those megaliths might encounter leftover rats or cockroaches...

* I've seen interesting images of possible Mars artifacts, but most such objects seem to be illusions. What look like trees appear to be arachnids in some cases, like forests, and electrically formed vertical structures in single lines in other cases. The latter are shown on one of the Lightning Scarred Mars videos. It'll be interesting to see what the city-like features turn out to be. I suspect that those are illusions too, because I doubt if cities or city builders survived the cataclysms of ten thousand and five thousand years ago. But it would be interesting if they're actually cities, whether inhabited or not.


Again, this is from an ESA image which shows a desert area, all Skipper has done is adjust color hues, I've checked it myself:

Image

Also again, I've worked with image coding software and there's no way software artifacts could produce anything like that, that's urban infrastructure.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby tholden » Thu May 17, 2012 7:43 pm

webolife wrote:Why am I not a "theistic evolutionist"?


What I tell people, particularly Christians who ought to know better, about "theistic evolution(TM)" is that God does not use broken tools. The effect that has on some of them is funny to watch.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby kell1990 » Thu May 17, 2012 9:11 pm

phyllotaxis wrote:Because it's taken me 45 minutes to get through this entire thread, it's too late for me to write the observations and questions I have of the participants--

but before I go to bed I offer this to my friends:

CTRL + A = select all text in cursor text range

Then,

CTRL + C = copy selected text

If you condition yourself to remember to include these elementary commands during any long missive (I do it after every sentence or so), you will have a current backup of everything you are typing available to paste back in
with the PASTE command: CTRL + V

In other words, hitting "CTRL A" (select all) then "CTRL C" (copy selected) will select all of your text then copy it to your invisible clipboard.
If you do this frequently during your typing then even if you lose your work by backing out of the page or something all you do is put your cursor in the empty reply box, hit "CTRL V" (paste from clipboard) and *poof*, everything you had saved appears before you safe and sound.
Even if you don't do it during writing, ALWAYS do it before submitting, so that any site error will not erase your hard-thought and typed work.
Go ahead... try it.

Kindest regards--


Thank you very much. At least one of us will do that in the future.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby kell1990 » Thu May 17, 2012 9:42 pm

tholden wrote:
Lloyd wrote:
Ted said: My working hypothesis at this point is that we are seeing megalithic artificial structures and the remains of everything from villages to cities larger than NY or LA on Mars, trees and forests and some of the trees may still be alive... I would bet heavily against finding anything MOVING on Mars today, but you never know. Anybody exploring underground, in those glass tubes, or inside one of those megaliths might encounter leftover rats or cockroaches...

* I've seen interesting images of possible Mars artifacts, but most such objects seem to be illusions. What look like trees appear to be arachnids in some cases, like forests, and electrically formed vertical structures in single lines in other cases. The latter are shown on one of the Lightning Scarred Mars videos. It'll be interesting to see what the city-like features turn out to be. I suspect that those are illusions too, because I doubt if cities or city builders survived the cataclysms of ten thousand and five thousand years ago. But it would be interesting if they're actually cities, whether inhabited or not.


Again, this is from an ESA image which shows a desert area, all Skipper has done is adjust color hues, I've checked it myself:

Image

Also again, I've worked with image coding software and there's no way software artifacts could produce anything like that, that's urban infrastructure.



I am again assuming that someone hasn't been playing around with Photoshop, transferring an existing image onto another image. If that is the case, then may the perpetrator be burned alive. If I beleived in a "hell", then I would condemn you to it. Shame upon anyone who would desecreate images from the past.

That said, I've been on the "engineering team" of many major construction projects, and this is what the layout looks like when we transfer the drawings to reality. Nature does not produce these types of right-angle designs, on this scale. On smaller scales, maybe, but I stand to be corrected here by the geologists.

My present guess is that this is a hoax, because no Mars civilization has ever been found.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby StevenJay » Fri May 18, 2012 9:15 am

Whatever glory Mars may have once enjoyed, we may never know. But what's blatantly obvious is that Mars suffered repeated worldwide calamities at a scale we simply cannot fathom that, among other things, excavated massive amounts of material from one hemisphere and deposited it over the other, and ripped away pretty much its entire atmosphere.

And yet - we're supposed to be looking at "urban infrastructure," wherein crisp, pristine, boxy structures still stand miraculously unscathed. What am I missing? :?
It's all about perception.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby webolife » Fri May 18, 2012 11:16 am

StevenJay,
You're missing the part where an alien race travels across the universe and sets up a whole city of rhomboid shaped buildings on the wall of a crater on a tiny dead waterless and mostly airless planet, and misses that planet's larger more fertile and life sustaining neighbor just a few dozen million miles away.

This Mars civilization stuff is significantly off thread.
Could we move this discussion back to whatever thread tholden originally brought up the Mars "civilization" pictures?

Tholden,
I have used the same "broken tools" adage myself many a time.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby tholden » Sat May 19, 2012 8:12 am

webolife wrote:StevenJay,
You're missing the part where an alien race travels across the universe and sets up a whole city of rhomboid shaped buildings on the wall of a crater on a tiny dead waterless and mostly airless planet, and misses that planet's larger more fertile and life sustaining neighbor just a few dozen million miles away.

This Mars civilization stuff is significantly off thread.
Could we move this discussion back to whatever thread tholden originally brought up the Mars "civilization" pictures?


Mars civilization is part of any shot at understanding how modern humans got to this planet. Given that you had modern humans living elsewhere in our system before they lived here, Occam's principle demands that saltation from elsewhere in our own system be accepted as simpler and preferable to any other theory of no greater explanatory power.
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Re: Catastrophic evolution vs "punctuated equilibrium"

Unread postby tholden » Sat May 19, 2012 8:14 am

Oh, yeah, I should probably mention that I view a conference on "The Human Question" which does not take this possibility into account, as a waste of time.
Last edited by tholden on Sat May 19, 2012 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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