## Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

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### Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

The plasmasphere of Saturn is an electrical environment, causing everything from dark-mode plasma discharges to gigantic lighting bolts that flash across the ring plane. When Cassini got close enough to the giant planet, mission specialists were shocked to discover lightning of immense power, up to a million times more powerful than anything on Earth.

...................................

Flattening of Saturn’s plasmasphere on the sunward side is due as much to an electrical connection between Saturn and the Sun as it is to the pressure of the solar wind.

Does this imply a mechanical pressure?
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Sparky

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

Sparky wrote:
Flattening of Saturn’s plasmasphere on the sunward side is due as much to an electrical connection between Saturn and the Sun as it is to the pressure of the solar wind.

Does this imply a mechanical pressure?
It would seem to. Have you looked at any of the E/M field stuff by Miles Mathis? http://milesmathis.com He proposes that what Newton defined mathematically (thought not mechanically) consists of a unified field of gravity and E/M and that the E/M field is a push, thus the Sun is pushing against Saturn, which is part of the reason Saturn (or any planet) is in the orbit it's in.
rjhuntington

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

The plasmasphere of Saturn is an electrical environment, causing everything from dark-mode plasma discharges to gigantic lighting bolts that flash across the ring plane. When Cassini got close enough to the giant planet, mission specialists were shocked to discover lightning of immense power, up to a million times more powerful than anything on Earth.

I"m curious why the video linked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GbejVnY ... re=related) stated the lightning on Saturn was not significantly stronger than that of Earth's?
Rhabdo

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

Rhabdo wrote:
The plasmasphere of Saturn is an electrical environment, causing everything from dark-mode plasma discharges to gigantic lighting bolts that flash across the ring plane. When Cassini got close enough to the giant planet, mission specialists were shocked to discover lightning of immense power, up to a million times more powerful than anything on Earth.

I"m curious why the video linked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GbejVnY ... re=related) stated the lightning on Saturn was not significantly stronger than that of Earth's?

Needs to be researched, i guess...

I can't see videos, can't even get onto utube site, so maybe the original source is the place to look..Cassini?

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rj, yes, I have looked at some of Miles' papers.....

I am not sure where, if any, there is a divide between electrical and what we experience as mechanical. glyn, from NASA, seemed to agree with me that the "solar wind" magnetically affected earth's magnetosphere, but kept using analogies that were mechanical, Mach 1 barrier and associated shock waves.

By "mechanical pressure", i was asking more like the particles in the "wind" would contact and displace the magnetic field.
I think, my WAS, that the sun's magnetic field causes the earth's "shock wave" effect....unless there are electric and magnetic fields associated with the wind?? ...i donno..

Just saw on tv a lightning strike at Shell Houston open golf tournament!!!

It hit a tree on Thurs., 29th, just off the green, very near a tent!
And the tree did not look to be the tallest, though it was somewhat isolated from other trees. Stripped off some bark!!
Damn, i love big Sparks!!
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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### Plumes

Are the plumes recently photographed http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMSZ2037PG_index_1.html#subhead2 really salt water spraying out of the ice crust? Or are they actually plasma, and some of the water detected is from elsewhere?

PK
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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

Looks like an electrical discharge to me. It would carry with it anything that is nearby.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

Why is there so much evidence (cassini recently flew THROUGH a plume and sample particles) that points to giant jets of salt water? Lies, damned lies, or???
PlasmaKid

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

I doubt if they are lying....maybe reaching the wrong conclusion....but there is water and OH in space, so if there were Na and Cl , maybe NaCl with the water,,, it would appear as a salt water jet. I doubt if Saturn is a giant water balloon, spurting saltwater. More probably an electrical discharge that is carrying salt water and other things with it.

One of the missions to an asteroid, I think, flew through rocks that were being ejected.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

it would appear as a salt water jet. I doubt if Saturn is a giant water balloon, spurting saltwater. More probably an electrical discharge that is carrying salt water and other things with it.
That the origin of the water is from Saturn must be given serious consideration. The salt water may have gotten to Enceladus from Saturn.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/mi ... 07321.html
Carolyn Porco, an award-winning planetary scientist and leader of the Imaging Science team for NASA's Cassini spacecraft. "Cassini has flown several times now through this spray and has tasted it. And we have found that aside from water and organic material, there is salt in the icy particles. The salinity is the same as that of Earth's oceans."

From "Velikovsky: The Bonds of the Past" (1972) see this clip starting at 9:13

According to the earlier records the origin of the great flood is Saturn which was referred to by the ancients as a water planet
Velikovsky states that the Deluge was the result of a nova like explosion of Saturn, which was then closer to the Earth, sending filaments of salt water to the Earth.
The observation of salt water (of similar salinity to the Earth's oceans) in the Saturn system is another piece of evidence consistent with recent planetary catastrophism.

nick c
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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

a nova like explosion of Saturn, which was then closer to the Earth, sending filaments of salt water to the Earth.

doesn't that sound like an electrical discharge?

could the planets have been connected by a "sheet" of plasma, possible encompassing the whole of each?
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

Sparky,
Sorry to have derailed the thread, but I got a little over enthusiastic about the NASA comment concerning salt water jets and Enceladus. I am not speaking for Steve Smith or any of the TPoD's. But you are correct, the salt water could have formed as part of the electrical excavation process and Saturn is not necessarily a giant water balloon. I'll give a response to your comments and then let the thread resume on the topic of the TPoD.
Sparky wrote:
nick c wrote:a nova like explosion of Saturn, which was then closer to the Earth, sending filaments of salt water to the Earth.
doesn't that sound like an electrical discharge?

could the planets have been connected by a "sheet" of plasma, possible encompassing the whole of each?

Yes, it must have been an electric discharge. Although Velikovsky was describing his interpretation of the mythic record - that Saturn after encountering Jupiter, suddenly became extremely bright, filling the heavens with a blinding light, which was followed by the deluge seven days later. He deduced that Saturn had gone "nova." This event was later celebrated as the Saturnalia, Kronia, or the "festival of light." This would be similar to a nova event but on a somewhat smaller scale. The electric star model theorizes that nova's are fissioning events, in which the original body divides into two unequal parts to relieve electrical stress. Some of us speculate that this nova event may have marked the birth of Venus.
[I have to correct my statement in the quotes above. Velikovsky did not maintain that the water came directly from Saturn, but that the filaments or comets (?) contained H2 and NaCl which combined with O2 in the Earth's atmosphere to form salt water.]

nick c
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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

nick c,
Sorry to have derailed the thread,

Oh, nonsense...You always bring in information that i don't know or have forgotten, and it is appreciated by me.

I can't answer these questions with much authority, so having someone to bring documentation and a learned perspective, even if it is tangential a bit, sure helps me in understanding.

I'm having house repair problems, so not much time to wait on my dellosaurs to collect google searches...
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky

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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

by PlasmaKid » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:44 pm

Why is there so much evidence (cassini recently flew THROUGH a plume and sample particles) that points to giant jets of salt water? Lies, damned lies, or???

The ISO observations probe a gas of very different physical conditions to those determined from ground based telescopes. The water molecules and H2 seem to be excited to temperatures between 500 and 1200 K. Probably this emission arises from very thin layers of shocked gas along the jet emerging from L1448-mm.

http://iso.esac.esa.int/science/SSR/Cernicharo.pdf

A hydroxyl is a chemical functional group containing an oxygen atom connected by a covalent bond to a hydrogen atom, a pairing that can be simply understood as a substructure of the water molecule. When it appears, it imparts to chemical structures some of the reactive and interactive properties of the -OH of water (ionizability, hydrogen bonding, etc.). The neutral form of the hydroxyl group is a hydroxyl radical. The anion form, (OH−) is called the hydroxide anion; it bears a single negative charge largely residing on the more electronegative oxygen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl

I'm no astrophysicist, but space spectroscopy is an evolving science and am pretty sure they are not counting dew drops.

Stuff that might be water under different planetary conditions, around Saturn is more likely an ion soufflé and it's sprouting plums.

~
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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

I am rather fond of Miles Mathis' charge field and his description that E is weak in electricity and high in magnetism due to an unbalanced state. I have carried this further by thinking that M Farraday was right and magnetism and electricity and gravity are interconnected. Imagine the lightening strength of Saturn here on E. Do you think that this energy could transmute an incoming body into water and gravity? I do.
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### Re: Saturn’s Auroral Oval/March 29, 2012 by Stephen Smith

The Enceladus-Saturn system is probably one of the most studied systems in the solar system, thanks to the persistent presence of the Cassini-Huygens remote sensing mission. They have acquired enormous amounts of data about the bodies themselves and the environment in which they exist. That said, it is not surprising that their interpretations of those findings do not always accord with the EU perspective. Nonetheless, good observational work is being done daily, and the imagery is widely available to the public. Images (radar, optical, UV, radio and IR) don't make the whole picture, of course, but Cassini has a suite of other instruments that sample and classify (or "taste" as Ms. Porco chooses to call it) the local environment by means of plasma spectrometry and magnetic field intensity meters.

They have certainly flown through ionized material surrounding Enceladus, in particular the south polar jets and its thin ionosphere and the plasma torus within which Enceladus's orbit lies. They have detected sodium, chlorine, and hydroxyl ions - hence the terms "saltwater" - which those would become if they were in a less energetic plasma environment and recombined to create neutral atoms. But in the low pressure and ionized condition, they likely don't, at least not in large numbers. The rate at which water seems to be machined (electric discharge machining, EDM, via a large current flow through Enceladus's near-pole regions), which is called "mass-loading" seems to show a rate of water introduction to the ionosphere and plasma torus which would account for the fraction of water ostensibly measured in Saturn's atmosphere, and not the other way round. However, mass loading might be a 2-way street where water vapor on Saturn might well be accelerated (once ionized) toward Enceladus as well as the other way around. I for one couldn't comment on that, and I doubt that they have measured that small a detail.

They also know that there is an electric circuit, a current, which runs via a "magnetic flux tube" (a Birkeland current in our terminology), delivering charged particles to Saturn's polar aurora, creating energetic hot spots visible in ultraviolet light which are the same as the polar hot spots created in Jupiter's auroras by Io and three other moons. The return circuit is not identified, although some scientists have speculated that it may be via Saturn's equatorial current sheet (about which I know virtually nothing yet). Try googling "Enceladus magnetic flux tube" and look at the stuff that pops right up. Sparky, even your impaired box should be able to manage this.

I have e-mailed Ms. Porco asking if she could get the Cassini to investigate the possibility that there is a comparable "flux tube" in the southern direction between Enceladus and Saturn, and if so it might constitute the return side of the circuit between the two bodies, but no response. Those orbital missions are probably planned years in advance, and citizen input is unlikely to be considered, IMHO.

No evidence of hot spots has thus far been presented, in Saturn's southern aurora, so it is still unknown whether or not those have even been looked for, or if it is still unreported because further research is being done on it, or none have been found. If you don't look, of course...

That a current flow is present in the "tiger stripes region" near Enceladus's south pole seems obvious. Tidal heating is not strong enough to account for either the "geysers of salt water" or the amount of "anomalous" temperature rise found near the south pole, many times in excess of what they had expected. Joule heating (James Joule, 1841) caused by electric currents moving through resistive material in the moon's crust or interior could readily account for such heat formation, however, depending on the telluric (underground) current strength. I have asked for the current value (amps) or the power (watts) found by Cassini in the northern "flux tube", to no avail. I'm sure it's in there somewhere, though. The Cassini sites have covered most of this stuff pretty thoroughly, although most of the interesting papers remain behind the ol' paywall, as usual. Publicly funded and privately retained for sale, of course.

In plasma deposition or removal, the plasma need not be 100% ionized - plasmas can be formed with less than a percent of the particles being charged,, but as long as there is sufficient voltage, the charged particles can be energetic enough to entrain, and possibly ionize, neutral particles in order to yield a large mass flow onto or away from a body. As Enceladus is measured to be a charged body, and it is moving through Saturn's not insignificant magnetic field, electric currents of charged material must be set up and flow in some circuit through the polar (and other) circuitry.

From the EU perspective this seems both obvious and elegant, the simplest way to transmit and dissipate the power generated by a moving charged body in a planetary magnetic field.

Jim
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