Consciousness - the elephant in the room

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby StevenJay » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:01 am

Influx wrote:Consciousness is just like time. A concept. As such it does not exit. You are you...none of that dichotomy crap.

I think the "crap" in that statement is a result of your assumption that a dichotomy - a separation of some sort - even exists in the first place. It's like assuming that thoughts are separate from the mind that conceives them.

Where you see a dichotomy, I see Oneness exploring Itself via dualistic expressions - and that includes things like this discussion. ;)
It's all about perception.
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Aristarchus » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:11 am

tayga wrote:
Influx wrote:Consciousness is just like time. A concept. As such it does not exit.


I guess you mean 'exist'?

So, for you, concepts don't exist? Exactly how and where did you frame that non-existent idea and what are your non-existent words describing? Nothing?


Tayga,

A concept is not a physical entity that can be observed, but only articulated and placed as a hypothesis. One of the quotes in your signature file expresses the problematic aspect of assuming something considered merely as a concept (viz), "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

With the above in mind (no pun intended), the question was asked previously on this topic as to how Jaynes provides empirical data for his positing that ancient peoples did not have conciousness as found in current humans. Jaynes is a psychologist, and psychology is not a physical science. What experiment has Jaynes conducted to comport with his hypothesis?

Otherwise, when we articulate the concept of "consciousness precedes being," we then reframe the position as to something along the lines of "energy creates matter," as is the case in something known as localized orbital energy flux.

My own interest finds more science adhered to in the book, Lost Star of Myth and Time by Walter Cruttenden. In that book, Cruttenden argues that our sun is part of a binary, maybe even part of a trinary star group. When our sun is in perigree to its binary sister, the electromagnetic properties of our solar system our increased, as well as those on Earth, signifying an increase in consciousness, knowledge, and understanding among humankind (experiments are cited in the book to provide preliminary evidence). Thus, a pattern of Golden Ages, Silver Ages, Bonze Ages, and Iron Ages being cyclical, and that these correspond to the level of enlightened ages as well as dark ages.

In addition, the binary sun system is used to provide an alternative to the idea of precession of the stars being based upon differential gravitation/wobbling of Earth's axis.
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby ranmacar » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:56 pm

Sorry for hijacking the thread, this thought just keept my awake for too long :)

What it boils down to is maybe too simple.
The Aether is a "sea of consciousness", a fluid of self-aware point entities. Each point can move, with consequences described by its fluid properties. A single wave can't do much, but through collective action complex wave patters can be produced. Thus there is a primary need to Communicate, in order to Create. Lets call this Life.

Life evolves, producing ever increasing complexity. Some entities sustain the lower structures, and some explore new possibilities. From this come two basic drives for each such structure - the Will to power - control of lower structures to increase the potential for living, and the Will to procreate - creating a copy of the new achieved complexity for some of the lower entities to ascend to, increasing its Communication potential, as incentive for the Work needed for sustaining the substructures. This is Evolution. As blind and random as we chose it to be. From a simple standing wave (electron) to the galaxy, and to the human body, and beyond.

As a by-product, Laws are created. From the basic fluid dynamics, through physics, chemistry, biology, sociology.. All the same. We are now looking back, trying to figure out how our body works. And still new complexity emerges, through society. New laws are established, old are revaluated.

Consciousness, in this view, is fundamental. And a human, everything, is a society of it, with billions and billions struggling for control in each moment. The eternal war, with Matter as its casaulties, from which we build our shells, and weapons. So forever we only fight with thoughts. This is my deepest, on which I broke.

Who did i stole it from? And does it lurk around here already?
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Influx » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:38 pm

Influx wrote:Consciousness is just like time. A concept. As such it does not exit. You are you...none of that dichotomy crap.


tayga wrote:I guess you mean 'exist'?


Or exit stage left. :)

StevenJay wrote:I think the "crap" in that statement is a result of your assumption that a dichotomy - a separation of some sort - even exists in the first place. It's like assuming that thoughts are separate from the mind that conceives them.


Wait...whaaat? I am in favor for a holistic human being, and not for any sort of division in the human being. Hence the part about consciousness being a concept rather than some disembodied, life giving magic field.

To me consciousness is nothing more than the name/concept given to awareness. And awareness being axiomatic.
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Aristarchus » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:33 am

Influx wrote:Hence the part about consciousness being a concept rather than some disembodied, life giving magic field.

To me consciousness is nothing more than the name/concept given to awareness. And awareness being axiomatic.


If you're going to state something as being axiomatic, then the onus is on you provide a concrete experiment that provides evidence for your assertion. I've read through this entitre topic and only read where you offer an opinion based upon your own eternalized concepts.

Please note the following regarding research into this area and comment accordingly with research that disputes the below experiment:

http://www.livingenergyworks.com/articl ... tinuum.pdf

Dr. Valerie Hunt, a UCLA neurophysiologist was joined by physicists at UCLA to conduct experiments in a Mu room (a shielded room where the electromagnetic energy of the air can be altered without changing gravity or the oxygen content) that demonstrated the properties of electrical and magnetic energy. Dr. Hunt attached standard EMG electrodes to her volunteer subjects’ chakra points, and then connected the electrodes to sophisticated telemetry equipment. As she monitored the data from the equipment, she asked the subjects to give audio accounts of their states, and she asked an aura reader to report her observations.

In her book, Infinite Mind: Science of Human Vibrations of Consciousness, Dr. Hunt reported, “The findings were amazing. When the electrical aspect of the atmosphere in the room was withdrawn, leaving less electrical energy, the auric fields became randomly disorganized, scattered and incoherent. Sensory feedback was so impaired that subjects were totally unaware of the location of their bodies in space. The aura reader described the energy as no longer flowing but rather as jumping between people and chakras. Inside the body, she saw energy flowing in an extensive mesh network, described as a fishnet energy flow that did not correspond with meridian pathways. We believed it was flowing through the connective tissue which binds cells together.” (Hunt, p.30-31)

Upon further observation, Dr. Hunt noticed that, when the subjects did not have a supply of electromagnetic energy from the air, the interaction between them increased, and they drew on each others’ energies, which weakened both of the subjects’ auras. Their auras then became disorganized, and they began to sob. Their bodies reacted as though they were in danger; they lost their sense of boundaries, and their sense of body image disappeared. It was as though each person’s aura was looking for another electromagnetic field with which to interact. When the electrical field was restored all returned to normal. When the magnetism of the room was decreased, subjects became neurologically impaired. They could not balance or perform simple physical maneuvers. When the magnetic energy was increased, the subjects’ physical functions improved: the greater the concentration of magnetism, the greater the improvement in coordination and movement.
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby JaJa » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:01 am

http://www.livingenergyworks.com/articl%20...%20tinuum.pdf

We believed it was flowing through the connective tissue which binds cells together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminin

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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby mague » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:41 am

Do not mix up coenaesthesis with consciousness. The first ends at the tip of your body hair, maximum visual range and maximum of sense of smell. The 2nd not. Thats why any serious school about consciousness first teaches to clean up and build a solid me-myslef before connecting the the infinite us. An us as huge as the universe. Without such teachings the me-myself might go insane.
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Aristarchus » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Mague, something like this:

We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth-then it's far too late-when they pass away.
We were talking-about the love we all could share-when we find it
To try our best to hold it there-with our love
With our love-we could save the world-if they only knew.
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No-one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small,
And life flows ON within you and without you.
We were talking-about the love that's gone so cold and the people,
Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don't know-they can't see-are you one of them?
When you've seen beyond yourself-then you may find, peace of mind,
Is waiting there-
And the time will come when you see
we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.

- The Beatles - Within You Without You Lyrics
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby mague » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:27 am

Quite so Aristarchus.

If not done yet you might read Trungpa, Chogyam; Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism

Its much more clear then the "flower power wording". Almost sceintific. But shows well how the "psychodelic lifestyle" was able to disrupt linear illusion of reality for a few years.
The heart of the confusion is that man has a sense of self
which seems to him to be continuous and solid. When a though or
emotion or even occurs, there is a sense of someone being conscious
of what is happening. You sense that you are reading these words.
This sense of self is actually a transitory, discontinuous event,
which in our confusion seems to be quite solid and continuous.
Since we take our confused view as being real, we struggle to
maintain and enhance this solid self. We try to feed it pleasures
and shield it from pain. Experience continually threatens to
reveal our transitoriness to us, so we continually struggle to cover
up any possibility of discovering our real condition. "But," we
might ask, "if our real condition is an awakened state, why are we
so busy trying to avoid becoming aware of it?" It is because we
have become so absorbed in our confused view of the world, that we
consider it real, the only possible world. This struggle to
maintain the sense of a solid, continuous self is the action of ego.
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Sparky » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:15 am

Dr. Valerie Hunt, a UCLA neurophysiologist was joined by physicists at UCLA to conduct experiments in a Mu room (a shielded room where the electromagnetic energy of the air can be altered without changing gravity or the oxygen content) that demonstrated the properties of electrical and magnetic energy.

well, so far it sounds scientific.

Dr. Hunt attached standard EMG electrodes to her volunteer subjects’ chakra points, and then connected the electrodes to sophisticated telemetry equipment. As she monitored the data from the equipment, she asked the subjects to give audio accounts of their states, and she asked an aura reader to report her observations.


hmmmm, so much for science.. :roll:

" chakra points,"? Is there agreement on where these are? Assuming there are electrical nodes on the skin... :?

"audio accounts""? Accounts, responding to what questions? Accounts, subject to what suggestions? Accounts from people with what level of psychological stability?!

"an aura reader"? :roll:

Like I said, "so much for science"!! :roll:

Please note the following regarding research into this area and comment accordingly with research that disputes the below experiment:

This experiment is so poorly designed and of such a dubious concept, it pretty much disqualifies itself.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby mague » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:36 am

Sparky wrote:" chakra points,"? Is there agreement on where these are?


Yes there is agreement since a few millenia. Depending on who you ask for 3.500 to 10.000 years.

Its not un-science, rather science based on holistic observation and experimentation. Old-school science if you want.

It works just as the system of accupuncture works. Thats why modern science tries to find compliance, bridge old and new.
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Aristarchus » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:03 pm

Sparky wrote:This experiment is so poorly designed and of such a dubious concept, it pretty much disqualifies itself.


The link I gave you mentions the experiment that she had done, and you did not mention that in your post, but instead, chose to quote mine for something you found offensive with no explanation:

Here are Dr. Valerie Hunt's credentials:

http://valerievhunt.com/ValerieVHunt.co ... t_Bio.html

Born in Larwill Indiana, Dr. Valerie V. Hunt is a scientist, author, lecturer and Professor Emeritus of Physiological Science at the University of California, Los Angeles.


Best known for her pioneering research in the field of bioenergy, her visionary approach coupled with a rigorous adherence to the highest scientific standards has won Dr. Hunt international acclaim in the fields of physiology medicine and bioengineering.


She was the first to develop the protocols and instrumentation necessary to detect and record the body’s high frequency energy fields with the spectral analysis of bioenergy patterns. She discovered the neuromuscular patterns of non-verbal communication and her groundbreaking research has led to the first truly scientific understanding of the relationship between energy field disturbances, disease, emotional pathologies, human field communication and the energy spectrum of consciousness.


She continued her research abroad with analysis of ritualistic healing and mystical beliefs in the Orient, South America, Africa and the Pacific Islands. Dr. Hunt has consulted for NASA, served with the US Department of Health, Education & Welfare, taught courses in 20 medical colleges and universities, held professorates at the University of Iowa, Columbia University and U.C.L.A., and is an honored listee in the Marquis Who’s Who lists for America (American Women) and the World (Education, Medicine and Healthcare, and Science and Engineering).


A popular author and coveted public speaker, she maintains a full calendar of writing, lecturing and interviews in addition to her continued commitment to advancing research as Director of the BioEnergy Fields Foundation.


Dr. Hunt is the author of Naibhu, Infinite Mind and Mind Mastery. She makes her home overlooking the Pacific Ocean in sunny Malibu, California. Her newest book release is titled: Uncork Your Consciousness.
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Aristarchus » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:04 pm

mague wrote:Its much more clear then the "flower power wording".


Yeah, you're right, but that song rocks.
An object is cut off from its name, habits, associations. Detached, it becomes only the thing, in and of itself. When this disintegration into pure existence is at last achieved, the object is free to become endlessly anything. ~ Jim Morrison
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Scott MC » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:58 am

Image
(hotlinked from drawtheline.com, no idea what that is)
99.999+% of everything can't be that simple, can it?
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Re: Consciousness - the elephant in the room

Unread postby Elysiumfire » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:45 am

When certain radiating forces impinge upon the body's sense organs they cause nerve signals to pulse towards the spinal column and the brain. All these nerve signals are turned into a sentient experience of the world by some yet unknown and unfathomed mechanism. The Australian philosopher, David Chalmers calls it the 'hard problem' of conscious experience.

If one is to make an attempt at providing something of a plausible hypothesis that might direct efforts towards a better understanding of consciousness and the sentient experience, it is firstly essential to try and define the very subjects of our topic.

What is Consciousness?
You, dear reader, are conscious now as you read these words. All your bodily senses are relaying signals along nerve pathways, and your brain, it is thought, is processing those signals into the experience of sentiency you are currently enjoying. You are awake and aware, and conscious. Your brain doesn't just process external sense stimuli, it also processes internal proprioceptive signals that provide data about the condition of your body such as hunger and posture, etc. It all combines somehow into a sentient experience of the world, and of 'self'.

From out of a deep lay interest in the 'mind/body' problem of philosophy, I developed, during the nineteen nineties, an hypothesis on a mechanism for how consciousness is generated. I called this hypothesis 'quantum wave-field resonance correspondence' (QWRc), from which the conclusion drawn is that consciousness is nothing more than an emergent byproduct of quantum wave-field interactions. I provide the following analogy in order to illustrate to the reader what I mean, so that they can easily visualize the mechanism.

If we have two equally-sized bar magnets on a table some small distance apart, and bring them towards each other slowly, at some point before they physically meet, their respective magnetic fields will interact, either as a repulsion or as an attraction, depending upon their polarities. We can say that they 'corresponded' with each other from which an effect was observed.

Now let us swap the bar magnets for two identical particles. While they remain apart and spatially distant from each other, each will be in their rest phase, oscillating about their centers at a particular frequency. If a wave of kinetic energy should propagate towards the particles, it will force them towards each other, to the point where their respective wave-fields interact. This will raise the particles out of their rest phase and cause them to oscillate at a higher frequency with a higher energy value. During this correspondence (interactive) phase, I postulate that a short-lived resonance arises that is the sum total of the two particles intrinsic energy and that of the kinetic energy wave. This resonance lasts only as long as the correspondence (interaction), for as the kinetic wave passes, the two particles repel each other and return to their rest phase. I posit that this short-lived resonance that arises during the wave-field correspondence is the energy foundation of consciousness, and that what I have just described is its mechanism.

Wave-field correspondences occur throughout and within the very fabric of our bodies many millions of times a second, switching 'on' and 'off' as the correspondences begin and stop. Due to the quantity and speed at which the correspondence interactions occur, the resonance that arises out of them does not fade, but remains ever present, and places the physical body in a perpetual raised energy state. When we sleep, certain chemicals dampen down particular circuits in the brain that inhibit a number of body functions, but it still remains in an energised state. Towards the end of sleep, chemicals detect the build up of other chemicals, and signal for the production of exciter chemicals that bring the dampend body functions back online to the raised energy state.

Consciousness, is derived out of that raised energy state.

The reason why I call the interactions 'correspondences' is because the resonances that arise from them are carrier waves of information. They say something about the world, as if they are jigsaw pieces, almost (or probably is) like a binary language that the brain decodes into an existential experience of the world. How it does this, this hypothesis cannot answer or postulate, but it probably has something to do with looped feedback mechanisms of present stimuli cross-referenced with data from memory?

Will come back and continue this later...
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