Exactly How Old Are Homo Sapiens?

[moses]

As far as that goes, ignorance isn't the absence of intelligence, but may be either the lack of literacy, motivation or opportunity.
webo
The ability to transfer thoughts and an environment of little cold and much food, leads to a lack of literacy and motivation. But intelligence could be great. We judge the ancients by our measurements, but the ancients might have had abilities that render what we think as valuable or useful, as completely unneeded.
Mo

[vatek1]

I apologize for misinterpreting Tholden's response. I did a rather quick scan of the post and did not fully comprehend his response, after re-reading it I find it refreshing that some in Academia are seeing the fallacies in Geological Strata dating.

As per my "definite" statement on 15000 years, Professor Robert M. Schoch, is rewriting the book on Geological dating using newer erosion methods in Egypt, and has studied Atlantean (named with a lack of a better term) Megalithic structures. The construction techniques and size comparisons puts Puma Punkhu and other Peru/Bolivian structures in the same, if not exceeding the era of the Sphinx construction date. Currently, new theories are putting the Sphinx age, in the Age of Leo, zodiacal dates are not precision but if the Sphinx dating by Schoch is correct, which many Geologists are believing to be accurate, the Sphinx age is in excess of 10000 years. Also, dating of the actual engraving (Puma Punkhu) using new techniques which I do not have the technical expertise to fully explain in this forum without reference material, his actual dating stated that it was in excess of 15000 years. I will have to refer to "Fingerprints of the Gods" for actual quote and his footnotes to the papers cited.

I again apologize if I misinterpreted Tholdens response. That is what I get for not fully reading the post and being to quick to judgement. I was not familiar with the work or author cited in his post, but I have since found some of his abstracts and find them very intuitive and challenging to the current state of Anthropology. His studies, from my reading so far, certainly tear down current theories and challenge the Evolutionists for better science or at least re-evaluation.

Best regards,
Forrest

[hex]

As per my "definite" statement on 15000 years, Professor Robert M. Schoch, is rewriting the book on Geological dating using newer erosion methods in Egypt, and has studied Atlantean (named with a lack of a better term) Megalithic structures. .... Currently, new theories are putting the Sphinx age, in the Age of Leo, zodiacal dates are not precision but if the Sphinx dating by Schoch is correct, which many Geologists are believing to be accurate, the Sphinx age is in excess of 10000 years. .... I will have to refer to "Fingerprints of the Gods" for actual quote and his footnotes to the papers cited.

IRC, Hancock says in Fingerprints of the Gods, that the Sphinx was Lion, because it was built during the Age of Leo, and it was looking at the constellation at the vernal equinox or something like that.

It raises the question: is there reason to suppose that the Egyptians/"Atlanteans" knew the constellation of Leo as constellation of Leo/Lion ... 10 000 years ago?

And the precession themes in the book, derived from "Hamlet's MIll", they suppose the present orbits of the planets or Earth, and the the present rate of axis wobble - contradicting the catastrophist accounts as far as I can see.

[GaryN]

If this isn't a smoking gun, I don't know what is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE_rv6RO ... ure=colike
But were the engineers human, an older civilisation?
And what was the event that threw these blocks around, as seems to have
happened ot other sites where there was apparently advanced engineering?
Natuaral, or ancient wars? Something doesn't add up.

[JaJa]

If this isn't a smoking gun, I don't know what is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE_rv6RO ... ure=colike
But were the engineers human, an older civilisation?
And what was the event that threw these blocks around, as seems to have
happened ot other sites where there was apparently advanced engineering?
Natuaral, or ancient wars? Something doesn't add up.

Nice video...

Religion isn't my thing but if you look at these verses in Genesis chapter four they are curious because this is a period that is supposed to herald the beginning of mankind/civilization/homo-sapiens/man:-

21 And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain [was] Naamah.

23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

These four verses are part of Cain's [the murderer] genealogy. Lamech [5th generation from Cain's side] killed a man as well... nice family.

The reference to the harp (verse 21) throws up some interesting history about music. In addition, Sumerian artifacts amongst many things include the harp, so was Jubal, the father of all such as handle the harp, Sumerian, the Sumerians are thought to have emerged 4500 to 4000 BC. The Egyptians were also fond of the harp. The symbol of King David [as can be seen in this link] was the harp. King David was a King of Israel.

In reference to your comment about advanced engineering and ancient wars what is this very early generation homo-sapien in Tubal-cain doing being an instructor of every artificer or craftsman in brass and iron... was Tubal-cain a skilled craftsman crafting brass idols or a military-type mechanic crafting brass and iron weapons, take your pick from the definition.

Was this knowledge being passed on from a much earlier and advanced epoch..?

[GaryN]

There is no doubt in my mind that there were previous advanced civilisations JaJa, and the evidence,
even in the more subtle clues such as your references only adds to that. There seems to be a growing
public awareness of the issue, with programs like Ancient Aliens. For the most part nobody really cares.
It is the implications of this becoming an accepted truth that we should be considering, and that is that
those people, or the victors of what appear to have been some nasty battles, are still here, and it is they
who dictate the conditions of our existence. Cattle, as the Greeks said. It seems that they have been preventing
our progress. And that is told in the Bible of course. We got too smart once before, and they didn't like that.
I was just wondering with the slot in the stone, I wonder if it would be possible to examine inside the slot to
determine if there was any evidence of saw marks? Would water going in there all this time have smoothed the surface
enough to erode any evidence? I think I'd be disappointed if there were saw marks in there though. I'd be more
impressed if it looked like only a Gamma Ray Laser could do it.

[hotpolo]

Human evolution of origin from apes, this has scientific proof.

[webolife]

Hotpolo,
Let's see how willing you are to actually look at the definitive evidence for your claim.
1. Are you aware that the most "ancient" [in terms of standard radiometric dating] fossils of humans are entirely modern in character? In other words, "moderns" pre-date their alleged "ancestors"...
2. Are you aware that "Lucy" and the other famous autralopithecines are debated as to whether they were ancestral to chimps or humans? Did you know that the rivalry between Leakey and Johansen over the discovery of "Lucy" went on for years, the more "famous" Richard Leakey claiming on solid grounds that Lucy was a chimp?
3. Are you aware that artist reconstructions and conceptions of "ancient" humans are imaginative and based on a presumption of ape-kind origins?
4. Are you aware that the differences in morphology of extant humans are as great as the difference between "moderns" and neanderthals?
5. Are you aware that homo erectus, home sapiens neanderthalensis, and "modern" homo sapiens can be shown to have been contemporaneous with each other, based on considerations of the standard geologic column?
6. Are you aware that evolution is a belief system generally unsupported by fossils, genetics, or common sense; or do you solve this dilemma by believing that it was a process directed by an intelligent being?

[tholden]

In reference to your comment about advanced engineering and ancient wars what is this very early generation homo-sapien in Tubal-cain doing being an instructor of every artificer or craftsman in brass and iron... was Tubal-cain a skilled craftsman crafting brass idols or a military-type mechanic crafting brass and iron weapons, take your pick from the definition.

Was this knowledge being passed on from a much earlier and advanced epoch..?

On the off chance you might not have seen this already, the new page at bearfabrique attempts to answer some of those kinds of questions:

http://bearfabrique.org/Catastrophism/P ... istory.htm

[JaJa]

On the off chance you might not have seen this already, the new page at bearfabrique attempts to answer some of those kinds of questions:

http://bearfabrique.org/Catastrophism/P ... istory.htm

Is this your website Tholden... I haven't visited here before. It looks like an interesting read.

What Does The Bible Say About Any of This?

The answer to that one is simple: absolutely nothing. As near as I can tell from reading, including the Book of Adam and Eve and Midrashim in the form of Louis Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews", Adam and Eve were real people and there has to be some meaning to the claim of them being the first people, but Genesis itself refers to people using metals and complex instruments while Adam and Eve were alive:

The bible does have a great deal of info... if you turn to chapter 1 and verse 24 of Genesis:-

24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Many living things are created before man on the sixth day... creatures, cattle, creepy things and beasts. I also contend that a day-in-the-life of a God is more like an aeon [a billion years] rather than 24 hours, but hey, that's just a personal opinion. A couple of verses later man makes his first appearance:

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27: So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The text is specific... Let "us" make man in "our" image, after "our" likeness. This first man is God-like. Either there are two separate God's or God is a dual God-head. An hermaphrodite. This God then gives this man-God who is created both male and female seeds to replenish the earth. There is no mention of Adam or of Eve [Homo Sapiens]... yet.

29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

There is reference to this man-God being a vegetarian. After the sixth day [aeon] God rests on the seventh day [aeon] and we are then introduced to the LORD God. Lord is a term for ruler as you probably know... well, the man created in chapter one was given "dominion" over everything:-

28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

It seems to me that original man is the LORD God, after all, he/she was created in the image and likeness of God... things then get interesting in Genesis chapter 2:-

4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

I don't believe "these generations" are simply a recap of what happened in chapter 1... for a start the text is reversed and the process of Genesis is also reversed because the LORD God forms man before he/she forms any of the living creatures, cattle and beasts and plants and trees etc which is contrary to the sequence of events in chapter 1.

7: And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8: And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Here we have the ruler "planting" a garden [for which seeds are needed] and creating another man from dust or [matter] for the specific reason of "tilling" or farming the ground. Why would a God need to plant anything and why would a God need a farmer?

So what is my point in all of this babbling... when we get to chapter 2 and the LORD God's generations... are the events taking place whilst God rests on the seventh day [aeon] and are the living creatures/beasts etc that God created in chapter 1 consisting of the apes and Homo rudolfensis, H. ergaster, H. georgicus, H. antecessor, H. cepranensis, H. rhodesiensis and H. floresiensis etc and that the man the LORD God creates in chapter 2 is the beginning of intelligent Homo-Sapiens... Adam and Eve... after all, it is this man that is called Adam and it is through him that Eve is formed... just some thoughts.

[tholden]

The bible does have a great deal of info... if you turn to chapter 1 and verse 24 of Genesis:-

24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so...

Again chapter 4 of Genesis (Tubalcain) indicates that iron and brass were being used in the lifetime of Adam and Eve and the Bible generally does not know anything about an age of stone implements or, for that matter, a neolithic world war against shaggy monsters (Neanderthals) or in fact even atlatls. The atlatl was the neolithic super weapon and almost certainly the most major weapon involved in ridding the planet of hominids; it's almost astounding that the Bible does not mention it, that searching the bible for "thrower" turns up nothing, and that there are only a handful of mentions of javelins in the Bible. The weapons of the Bible are spears, swords, slings and the bow. It may be that the people of Genesis were the same racial stock as Cro Magnons but otherwise unrelated to them i.e. got here a bit later than the Cro Magnons.

[JaJa]

Again chapter 4 of Genesis (Tubalcain) indicates that iron and brass were being used in the lifetime of Adam and Eve and the Bible generally does not know anything about an age of stone implements or, for that matter, a neolithic world war against shaggy monsters (Neanderthals) or in fact even atlatls

I agree, but what the bible does infer is that there was a previous epoch...

Genesis 1

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

I think I mentioned somewhere else on the forum that heaven and earth do not become unique objects/places until verses 8 and 10 when they are named by God and capitalized as Heaven and Earth. The use of lower case heaven and earth denotes common nouns or a "class" of non-unique entities, i.e. 'earth' can mean matter or even terrain in general. That heaven and earth are not unique (i.e. created for the first time) in the first verse tells me they were created from preexisting principles/conditions... maybe I'm wrong on that.

It may be that the people of Genesis were the same racial stock as Cro Magnons but otherwise unrelated to them i.e. got here a bit later than the Cro Magnons

There are two distinct lineages... whether they were the same 'racial' stock is up for debate. In Genesis chapter 4 we have:

1: And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

25: And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The LORD and God are not singing from the same hymn sheet... hence further into Genesis 20 you get:

17: So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare [children].

18: For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

[hex]

Genesis 1

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

I think I mentioned somewhere else on the forum that heaven and earth do not become unique objects/places until verses 8 and 10 when they are named by God and capitalized as Heaven and Earth. The use of lower case heaven and earth denotes common nouns or a "class" of non-unique entities, i.e. 'earth' can mean matter or even terrain in general. That heaven and earth are not unique (i.e. created for the first time) in the first verse tells me they were created from preexisting principles/conditions... maybe I'm wrong on that.

Well, you really cannot conclude from the modern English ortography these things, Hebrew was and is? an unicase script, it doesn't have upper and lower cases.

I seem to remember that the Hebrew word for "creation" in the first chapter is indeed word denoting creation ex nihilo, out of nothing, in comparison to the second chapter, that describes how Lord (Yahveh) "forms" Adam out of the earth with His hands ...

[JaJa]

Well, you really cannot conclude from the modern English ortography these things, Hebrew was and is? an unicase script, it doesn't have upper and lower cases.

Be it modern English or 400 year old scholarly translation of ancient Hebrew the context of the text remains the same or very similar regardless of capitalized letters. The text translated from the Torah in verse 1 still reads in the beginning god made the heaven and earth and in verse 8 it still reads and god called the firmament heaven [...] and verse 10 still reads and he called the dry land earth [...]

In verses 8 and 9 the firmament is called heaven or Heaven and the waters gathered together are called earth or Earth, three days [or aeons] pass between verse 1 and 10 hence the reference to previous epochs.

I seem to remember that the Hebrew word for "creation" in the first chapter is indeed word denoting creation ex nihilo, out of nothing, in comparison to the second chapter, that describes how Lord (Yahveh) "forms" Adam out of the earth with His hands ...

The Hebrew word Bara is assumed to mean Creatio ex nihilo but that’s all it is, a prevailing assumption. Instead of relying on popular idealism shouldn’t we explore the Semitic languages and related synonyms to see if this word merits such widely assumed use in Genesis. For example, the ancient Akkadians had the word baru which meant to "make" or "create". Baru is similar to the Hebrew bara. The Assyrian term banu means to "build" or "form". The fact that banu is the verb used in the ancient Mesopotamian [Babylonia] creation story Enuma Elish where Ea created mankind out of Kingu’s blood shows creation coming from something [blood] and not nothing. Even in Genesis [2:22] the term banah is used in addition to bara where he [Yahweh] built the rib into the woman, i.e. the creation of woman from man and not nothing.

Now consider the feminine Hebrew noun beri’ah as a term for the creation of something completely new as seen in Numbers 16:30 – "But if the LORD make a new thing, and the ground open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down alive into the pit, then ye shall understand that these men have despised the LORD"

Even so, this term for the creation of something "new" doesn’t mean the creation of something from nothing because it’s in association with the ground [earth]... heaven or Heaven and earth or Earth in verses 8 and 10 are created from what is fashioned in Genesis verse 1. The assumption that anything can be created from nothing rather than from preexisting conditions, on the face of it, is utterly absurd. The supreme creator is "believed" to be everything so how anyone can conclude that in the beginning God created the heaven and earth from nothing instead of from everything already in existence is beyond me. Show me a "piece" of "nothing".

In comparison to the second chapter, that describes how Lord (Yahveh) "forms" Adam out of the earth with His hands...

The term Adamah is the Hebrew feminine for earth [ground]... is Adam ultimately feminine in nature?

The man created in chapter 1 is created in the image and likeness of God – both male and (fe)male. Sounds like an hermaphrodite (type) man-god and not Homo-Sapien to me.

The man created in Genesis chapter 2 by the LORD God I think is the beginning of flesh and blood Homo Sapiens because the reference is to man being formed from dust [or matter] – how much time passes between this point of creation and the time Adam and Eve are separated to the generations of Cain [Tubal-Cain] is up for discussion.

If you haven’t already found the Nag Hammadi the apocalypse of Adam has this to say:

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/adam.html

The revelation which Adam taught his son Seth in the seven hundreth year, saying:

Listen to my words, my son Seth. When God had created me out of the earth, along with Eve, your mother, I went about with her in a glory which she had seen in the aeon from which we had come forth. She taught me a word of knowledge of the eternal God. And we resembled the great eternal angels, for we were higher than the god who had created us and the powers with him, whom we did not know.

Then God, the ruler of the aeons and the powers, divided us in wrath. Then we became two aeons. And the glory in our heart(s) left us, me and your mother Eve, along with the first knowledge that breathed within us.

Interesting to note that Adam says the first knowledge that breathed within them left after God [LORD God] divided him and Eve in wrath. This corresponds with the standard KJV translation in Genesis chapter 2, verse 21.

Is this knowledge lost through a spell or some kind of deep hypnosis?

21: And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof

Additionally, the hypostasis of the archons implies prior epochs. Also the Book of Enoch [from chapter VIII] sheds more light on Cain’s descendants being taught about weapons and warfare and other such skills that focused on "material" beauty as well as magic.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe011.htm

1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. 2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl [...]

The above corresponds with Genesis chapter 4, verse 22 [Tubal-Cain] but in more detail. The use of "antimony"or eye cosmetics was popular with the Egyptians although "antimony" is believed to predate Egyptian dynasties.

Before the Egyptians were the Sumerians whose "God's" were the "Anunnaki". Who were the Anunnaki? Aliens or fallen angels?

I remember hearing the name Azazel mentioned before and recall that it was in a film called “Fallen” with Denzel Washington. The film was about a fallen angel/demon with the ability to possess people and animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_%28film%29#Plot

[webolife]

Time to revitalize this thread.
Here's a link I ran across recently:
http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/adam.html
Nice doorway to a variety of related topics which may interest the readers. I question some of the alleged dates, but aside from that find many of the evidences presented to be relevant to our discussion here.