Earth History

[Lloyd]

Help Reconstruct History
* Feel free to discuss any aspect of Earth History here.
* I'm doing my part with the following chart, which comes largely from the thread, Cardona Interview on Saturn Theory, at https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3824.

Part 1: - Saturn Formation -
- Age of Darkness
-a) Brown Dwarf Star Saturn - like a glow worm - with
-a1) Circumstellar Disk,
-a2) Bipolar Jets
-a3) and an invisible Plasmasphere - that obscured stars;
-b) Located in Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy.

Part 2: - Numerous Saturn Flare Cycles -
- On Saturn Each Cycle Involved:
-a) a Saturn Flare;
-b) possibly a Rocky Planet/Satellite Ejection from Saturn;
- forming Earth, Mars, Mercury, & other Satellites, one per cycle;
-c1) Destruction of old Disk;
-c2) Formation of new Disk;
-d) Deposition of Saturn Flare Debris on Satellites;
-e) Return of Saturn's Bipolar Jets.

Part 3: - Formation of Earth etc during a Saturn Flare
- On Earth Each Cycle Involved:
-a) Deposition of Saturn Flare Debris:
- Rocks, Dust, Water & Hydrocarbons;
-b1) Conflagration from Flare Heat, Dry Plants, Hydrocarbons etc;
-b2) Melting of Glaciers;
-c) Magnetic braking of Earth's rotation by Saturn -
-c1) with Continental Sliding,
-c2) Tsunamis & Flooding
-c3) and possibly Earth Expansion;
-d) Loss of Saturn's Bipolar Jets;
-e1) Appearance of Dusty Aurorae over Temperate Zone;
-e2) Gradual New Glacier Formation in the Temperate Zone;
-f) a Long Quiet Warm Interlude;

Part 4: Saturn Leaves Sagittarius Galaxy & Enters Milky Way.

Part 5: Evolution of Oriental & Neanderthal Humans
ca. 100,000 to 50,000 y.a.
-a) Wading, Fishing Culture
-b) Development of Hunter-Gatherer Culture

Part 6: More Saturn Flare Cycles [probably forming Titan, etc.]
ca. 50,000 to 10,000 y.a.
-a) Evolution of Black & White Humans from Orientals
-b) Realistic Human Art
-c) Development of Language
-d) Development of Villages, Tools & Crafts
-e) Development of Agriculture
-f) Domestication of Dogs, Horses & Farm Animals
-g) Petroglyphs etc

Part 7: Final Saturn Flare Cycle
ca. 10,000 y.a.
-a) Entry into the Solar System;
-b) Saturn Flare;
-c) End of the Age of Darkness;
-d) Appearance of the Sun as a Distant Star;
-e) Appearance of Venus on the Face of Saturn;
-f) Appearance of the Polar Column from Earth's North Pole to Saturn;
-g) Appearance of Mars.

Part 8: Saturn's Golden Age
ca. 10,000 to 4,500 y.a.
-a) Cyclical Movement of Mars between Earth & Venus;
-b) Ouroboros Circular Movement of Comet Venus around Saturn;
-c) Beginning of Astronomy, Myths & Religion.

Part 9: Saturn System Breakup
ca. 4,500 to 4,300 y.a.
-a) Departure of Saturn
-b) Loss of the Polar Column
-c) the Great Flood
-d) Encounters with Venus & Mars
-e) Appearance of the Moon
-f) Appearance of Jupiter & Mercury

Part 10: Saturn Aftermath
ca. 4,300 to 2,500 y.a.
-a) Lingering Orbital Debris
-b) Periodic Meteoritic Cataclysms
-c) Beginning of History
-d) Development of Megalithic Cultures.
-e) Clearing of Orbital Debris

Part 11: Modern Era
ca. 2,500 to 0 y.a.
-a) Graeco-Roman Culture
-b) Ancient Oriental Culture
-c) Christian Culture
-d) Muslim Culture
-e) Recent Oriental Culture
-f) Science Culture

Part 12: Era of Peace & Prosperity
Near Future
-a) Humane Government
-b) Reformed Science
-c) Progressive Bio-engineering
-d) Space Colonization

[tholden]

Much of the sequence of events I could believe was at least as defensible as other versions. Parts of the chronologies however don't work, at least not for me. Probably worst is

Part 5: Evolution of Oriental & Neanderthal Humans
ca. 100,000 to 50,000 y.a.

Gunnar Heinsohn strikes me as having made a great deal more of a study of actual chronologies than the Kronia/Thunderbolts crowd has and notes that there is no real evidence for Neanderthals having died out earlier than around 4000 years ago.

Other than that, "Neanderthal human" is worse than an oxymoron. Neanderthal DNA is typically described as being about halfway between ours and that of a chimpanzee and the gulf between us and chimpanzees has recently been shown to be far wider than previously thought. The Neanderthal was a very advanced ape.

[Lloyd]

* An article dated May 6 last year at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene says:

- The study uncovered the first solid genetic evidence that "modern" humans ... interbred with their Neanderthal neighbors....
- most humans have a little Neanderthal in them—at least 1 to 4 percent of a person's genetic makeup.
- The results showed that Neanderthal DNA is 99.7 percent identical to modern human DNA, versus, for example, 98.8 percent for modern humans and chimps
- Chinese and Melanesians are as closely related to Neanderthals" as Europeans
- Trinkhaus [said] most living humans probably have much more Neanderthal DNA than the new study suggests. "One to 4 percent is truly a minimum"

[tholden]

In order to be descended from something via any process resembling evolution, at some point, you have to be able to interbreed with the something. Thus the curious total lack of any real evidence of modern man ever interbreeding with Neanderthals was always viewed as a big mystery particularly since there was evidence of the two groups living in close proximity for long periods. James Shreeve described the problem in an article published in Discover magazine in the mid 90s:

"Humans love to mate. They mate all the time, by night and by day, through all the phases of the female’s reproductive cycle. Given the opportunity, humans throughout the world will mate with any other human. The barriers between races and cultures, so cruelly evident in other respects, melt away when sex is at stake. Cortés began the systematic annihilation of the Aztec people--but that did not stop him from taking an Aztec princess for his wife. Blacks have been treated with contempt by whites in America since they were first forced into slavery, but some 20 percent of the genes in a typical African American are white. Consider James Cook’s voyages in the Pacific in the eighteenth century. Cook’s men would come to some distant land, and lining the shore were all these very bizarre-looking human beings with spears, long jaws, browridges, archeologist Clive Gamble of Southampton University in England told me. God, how odd it must have seemed to them. But that didn’t stop the Cook crew from making a lot of little Cooklets.

Project this universal human behavior back into the Middle Paleolithic. When Neanderthals and modern humans came into contact in the Levant, they would have interbred, no matter how strange they might initially have seemed to each other. If their cohabitation stretched over tens of thousands of years, the fossils should show a convergence through time toward a single morphological pattern, or at least some swapping of traits back and forth.

But the evidence just isn’t there, not if the TL and ESR dates are correct. Instead the Neanderthals stay staunchly themselves. In fact, according to some recent ESR dates, the least Neanderthalish among them is also the oldest. The full Neanderthal pattern is carved deep at the Kebara cave, around 60,000 years ago. The moderns, meanwhile, arrive very early at Qafzeh and Skhul and never lose their modern aspect. Certainly, it is possible that at any moment new fossils will be revealed that conclusively demonstrate the emergence of a Neandermod lineage. From the evidence in hand, however, the most likely conclusion is that Neanderthals and modern humans were not interbreeding in the Levant..."

And then in the late 1990s results of DNA studies of Neanderthal remains began to come in and cleared up the mystery:

http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19 ... 55423.html

"He said his team ran four separate tests for authenticity - checking whether other amino acids had survived, making sure the DNA sequences they found did not exist in modern humans, making sure the DNA could be replicated in their own lab and then getting other labs to duplicate their results. Comparisons with the DNA of modern humans and of apes showed the Neanderthal was about halfway between a modern human and a chimpanzee."

That's right: the Neanderthal was basically an advanced ape whose DNA was almost exactly halfway between ours and that of a chimpanzee, and we could no more interbreed with Neanderthals than we could with horses. Even the prestigeious PlosBiology system gave up on the idea (No Evidence of Neandertal mtDNA Contribution to Early Modern Humans).

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info ... io.0020057

Clearly that should have been the end of any talk about modern humans having evolved from hominids since all other hominids were significantly FURTHER removed from us THAN the neanderthal. Nonetheless evolutionites go on talking about a "common ancestor(TM) for both ourselves and Neanderthals, 500,000 years back. That of course is idiotic; it's as if somebody had discovered some reason why dogs could not be descended from wolves, and the evolutionites were to claim that therefore they (dogs) must be descended directly from fish.

But what about the time frames? We've seen that the time frames we read about for dinosaurs are totally FUBAR, what about the 50,000 and 200,000 and 500,000 year time spans you read about for supposed human ancestors? Do evolutionites have the sort of time they'd need to even be talking about hominid/human evolution?

Gunnar Heinsohn is best/brightest category in European academia and a frequent speaker at NATO gatherings since his population youth bulge theories predict political unrest with near 100% accuracy; he's also a major player in the ongoing efforts to reconstruct Med-basin chronologies. His "Wie Alt ist das Menschengeschlect" describes the problem with the dating schemes typically associated with Neanderthal studies:

Mueller-Karpe, the first name in continental paleoanthropology, wrote thirty years ago on the two strata of homo erectus at Swanscombe/England: "A difference between the tools in the upper and in the lower stratum is not recognizable. (From a geological point of view it is uncertain if between the two strata there passed decades, centuries or millennia.)" (Handbuch der Vorgeschichte, Vol I, Munich 1966, p. 293).

The outstanding scholar never returned to this hint that in reality there may have passed ten years where the textbooks enlist one thousand years. Yet, I tried to follow this thread. I went to the stratigraphies of the Old Stone Age which usually look as follows

modern man (homo sapiens sapiens)

Neanderthal man (homo sapiens neanderthalensis)

Homo erectus (invents fire and is considered the first intelligent man).

In my book "Wie alt ist das Menschengeschlecht?" [How Ancient is Man?], 1996, 2nd edition, I focused for Neanderthal man on his best preserved stratigraphy: Combe Grenal in France. Within 4 m of debris it exhibited 55 strata dated conventionally between -90,000 and -30,000. Roughly one millennium was thus assigned to some 7 cm of debris per stratum. Close scrutiny had revealed that most strata were only used in the summer. Thus, ca. one thousand summers were assigned to each stratum. If, however, the site lay idle in winter and spring one would have expected substratification. Ideally, one would look for one thousand substrata for the one thousand summers. Yet, not even two substrata were discovered in any of the strata. They themselves were the substrata in the 4 m stratigraphy. They, thus, were not good for 60,000 but only for 55 years.

I tested this assumption with the tool count. According to the Binfords' research--done on North American Indians--each tribal adult has at least five tool kits with some eight tools in each of them. At every time 800 tools existed in a band of 20 adults. Assuming that each tool lasted an entire generation (15 female years), Combe Grenals 4,000 generations in 60,000 years should have produced some 3.2 million tools. By going closer to the actual life time of flint tools tens of millions of tools would have to be expected for Combe Grenal. Ony 19,000 (nineteen thousand) remains of tools, however, were found by the excavators.

There seems to be no way out but to cut down the age of Neanderthal man at Combe Grenal from some 60,000 to some 60 years.

I applied the stratigraphical approach to the best caves in Europe for the entire time from Erectus to the Iron Age and reached at the following tentative chronology for intelligent man:

-600 onwards Iron Age
-900 onwards Bronze Age
-1400 beginning of modern man (homo sapiens sapiens)
-1500 beginning of Neanderthal man
between -2000 and -1600 beginning of Erectus.

Since Erectus only left the two poor strata like at Swanscombe or El-Castillo/Spain, he should actually not have lasted longer than Neanderthal-may be one average life expectancy. I will now not go into the mechanism of mutation. All I want to remind you of is the undisputed sequence of interstratification and monostratification in the master stratigraphies. This allows for one solution only: Parents of the former developmental stage of man lived together with their own offspring in the same cave stratum until they died out. They were not massacred as textbooks have it:

monostrat.: only modern man's tools

interstrat.: Neanderthal man's and modern man's tools side by side

monostrat.: only Neanderthal man's tools

interstrat.: Neanderthal man's and Erectus' tools side by side

monotstrat.: only Erectus tools (deepest stratum for intelligent man)

The year figures certainly sound bewildering. Yet, so far nobody came up with any stratigraphy justifiably demanding more time than I tentatively assigned to the age of intelligent man. I always remind my critiques that one millennium is an enormous time span--more than from William the Conqueror to today's Anglo-World. To add a millenium to human history should always go together with sufficient material remains to show for it. I will not even mention the easiness with which scholars add a million years to the history of man until they made Lucy 4 million years old. The time-span-madness is the last residue of Darwinism.

Heinsohn is not putting an exact age on the Neanderthal die-out; what he IS stating is that there is no legitimate interpretation of existing evidence which would indicate that they died out any more than four or five thousand years ago and that is basically consistent with the thing about raw dinosaur meat.

That of course is nowhere remotely close to the time frames which any sort of an evolutionary scheme of modern man from hominids would require. We are left with three basic choices:

• Modern man was created here from scratch, and recently.
• Modern man was brought here from somewhere else in the cosmos.
• Modern man was genetically re-engineered from one of the hominids, most likely the Neanderthal.

[tholden]

So far nobody's said anything about Neanderthals walking upright...


The answer these days:

So does Ambam:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDI3s21yf8

[tholden]

......Located in Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy.....

That one strikes me funny as well.

Wikipedia, which can be trusted for non-controversial things which I assume includes distances, describes Sagittarius as about 70,000 light years from Earth and you're talking about some sort of a process which might involve 70,000 or 100,000 years. Wouldn't Saturn have to have been moving within one order of magnitude of the speed of light to have done that??

I mean I notice that Al DeGrazia's version of a Saturn system history avoids that sort of problem.

[tholden]

ca. 50,000 to 10,000 y.a.
-a) Evolution of Black & White Humans from Orientals
-b) Realistic Human Art
-c) Development of Language...

The real story about spoken languages as we know them today:

http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophism/babel.html

[Orthogonal]

Help Reconstruct History

Part 12: Era of Peace & Prosperity
Near Future
-a) Humane Government
-b) Reformed Science
-c) Progressive Bio-engineering
-d) Space Colonization

Everything before 50,000ca and perhaps even 10,000ca seems far too speculative to make any definitive statements. From a broad general view these seem ok, but it's hard to say for sure.

Not sure where you get the notion we will have "Humane Government" in the Near Future. That is pretty much an oxymoron to begin with, and this position is pretty difficult to hold by looking at a newspaper on current world events.

[tholden]

"Humane Government" in the Near Future. That is pretty much an oxymoron to begin with....

I can't believe you caught that and I didn't. Getting old really sucks.

[Lloyd]

Dinosaurs & Giant Mammals
* I'd like to include dinosaurs and the large mammals on the list. I'd guess that the dinosaurs ended around 10,000 y.a. and the giant mammals ended 4,500 years ago. Those were both times of cataclysms.
* I suppose the dinosaurs began at least a few 100,000 y.a. and mostly died out before the first humans, but some stragglers survived until 10,000 y.a.
* I suppose giant mammals began shortly before humans did.
* Numerous TPODs suggest that many geological features on Earth that are dated to millions of y.a. are actually only a few thousand y.o., like to the time of one of the last great cataclysms. That's why it seems that dinosaurs probably did not originate over 200 million y.a. Lloyd Pye has said that human artifacts have been found in rock strata dated to 200 million y.a. or so too. He thought it meant that the human species is actually that old, but it's much more likely that the rock strata are much younger than dated.

[tholden]

Dinosaurs & Giant Mammals
* I'd like to include dinosaurs and the large mammals on the list. I'd guess that the dinosaurs ended around 10,000 y.a. and the giant mammals ended 4,500 years ago. Those were both times of cataclysms.
* I suppose the dinosaurs began at least a few 100,000 y.a. and mostly died out before the first humans, but some stragglers survived until 10,000 y.a..

From what I can gather you have different situations in the Americas vs the old world. Descriptions which you see of dinosaurs in midrashim appear to be describing a handful of leftovers which were viewed as oddities at a time just prior to the flood.

Amerind oral traditions and art work appear to be describing much more extensive and more recent contact between humans and dinosaurs. I don't see a way to view those Mishipishu glyphs as 10,000 years old; Ica stones likewise do not appear that old and again, attempts to discredit the Ica stones fall flat when faced with the fact that the first batch of the things which ever turned up numbered in the many thousands, and nobody is going to go to such an effort on pure speculation, i.e. before they have any idea whether or not gringos would actually pay money for such items. Even making one of them would be a whole lot of work.

[tholden]

Vendramini, despite the evoloser paradigm and mindset, has really added a few things to our understanding of Neanderthals. His description of what Neanderthals really looked like is completely believable and so is his claim of a neolithic world war ending with the extermination of hominids on this planet. The only thing which isn't believable is the claim of Skhul-Qafzeh hominids evolosering their way to being cro magnons with arrow lathes in too short a time span to measure.

I am clearly going to have to update my own website's areas dealing with neanderthals and will report back when that's ready.



If you ever meet up with one of these guys, remember not to try wrestling moves with it, you'd lose. The lack of a waist means they'd be limited to arm punching however and a strong human could take one of them in a punching contest, those big eyes and the nose are the main targets.

[Lloyd]

* This website shows human origins and history mostly in Europe and nearby areas, based on DNA findings: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml. It includes Cro Magnons. It looks like a lot of us have Cro Magnon ancestry, as well as Neanderthal. I heard elsewhere that caucasians and orientals have about 4% Neanderthal genes, but negroid people do not. So they figure that those who left Africa mated somewhat with Neanderthals. This is not to suggest that conventional uniformitarian views are largely correct. Their ideas about dating and what the continents looked like in the past are liable to be way off.

[tholden]

It looks like a lot of us have Cro Magnon ancestry, as well as Neanderthal. I heard elsewhere that caucasians and orientals have about 4% Neanderthal genes, but negroid people do not.

I don't see a way to buy that. It's well known that there's almost no genetic variation in the world's human population and that this indicates a very recent bottle-neck so that all modern humans are descended from a tiny number of fully modern humans, and those early cro magnons hated neanderthals sufficiently to launch a planetary genocide war against them, wiping all hominids off the planet. They would have killed anything which had any neanderthal blood in it at all and you wouldn't have been talking about one or two neanderthal genes at that point in time, crossbreeds of any sort at all would have been seriously obvious as you can tell from the picture.

I would assume that any genes we might have in common with neanderthals would amount either to pure coincidence or a designer of some sort re-using a few of the same low-level parts, even as C language stdio.h functions are used in both banking and rocket telemetry applications.

Again I plan to have my own take on this one available before much longer but, until then, you might want to check out the Kindle ($9) version of Vendramini's book, I believe the guy's made a significant contribution despite the evolutionite paradigm:

http://www.amazon.com/Them-Us-Neanderth ... 290&sr=8-1

[Chromium6]

Any thoughts on the Toba bottleneck?

http://anthropology.net/2007/07/06/moun ... dy-claims/

At about 74,000 years ago, Mount Toba on the island of Sumatra erupted in a massive explosion that supposedly rocked the Middle Palaeolithic world to its very foundations, bringing contemporary human populations to their knees, reducing the global population level to around 15,000 individuals, thereby precipitating a so-called bottle-neck of human evolution, as proposed by Stanley Ambrose, from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, discussed in this BBC News article from 1998, and in an essay at the Bradshaw Foundation, in the same year. However, recent discoveries made by Michael Petraglia, from the University of Cambridge, have now cast doubt on this theory…

(the team)…found the stone tools at a site called Jwalapuram, in Andhra Pradesh, southern India, above and below a thick layer of ash from the eruption of the Toba volcano in Indonesia — an event known as the Youngest Toba Tuff eruption.

The tools from each layer were remarkably similar, and Petraglia says that this shows that the huge dust clouds from the eruption didn’t wipe out the population of tool-using people. “Whoever was there seems to have persisted through the eruption,” he says.

This is the first archaeological evidence associated with the Toba super eruption, says Petraglia, and it contradicts theories that the eruption had a catastrophic effect on the area that its ash blanketed.

Following this eruption, a phase of dramatic global cooling ensued, evidenced by a 6-year global winter, which in turn was followed by the onset of the Würm glaciation event. Petraglia proposes that only modern humans could have survived such an event, giving as his evidence the supposed similarity of the lithic assemblage, and purported others, which he claims correspond with those found in Africa dating to around 100,000 bp, by which time modern anatomically modern humans had been extant there for some 100,000 years.

Petraglia thinks that modern humans — rather than Neanderthals or other hominins — are the only species that would have been able to persist through an event as dramatic as the Toba eruption. This theory will spur much debate, he admits, because modern humans were not thought to have reached India, from Africa, so long ago. “It’s controversial,” says Petraglia, “but it makes a lot of sense.”

Petraglia and his team compared the tools they found to others from Africa from different periods in this week’s edition of Science1. The Indian tools look a lot like those from the African Middle Stone Age about 100,000 years ago, when modern humans were thought to have lived, he says. “Whoever was living in India was doing things identical to modern humans living in Africa.” Neanderthal toolkits found in Europe are very different, he says. This is more evidence, he says, that the plucky ash-covered inhabitants of Jwalapuram were modern humans.

However, we know that modern humans weren’t the only individuals capable of withstanding sudden and extreme climate change, as Eurasian Neanderthals lived through the Riss glaciation which occurred from 180,000 bp – 130,000 bp, and they also survived the Mount Toba event, regardless of its supposed global impact. It’s possible too that Homo erectus lived on as late as 50,000 bp in Asia, and if Homo floresiensis turns out to be a genuine new species, they too survived this event (n.b. – but see this latest update from John Hawks, which I’ll attempt to address later)

Moreover, lithic assemblages, whether in India, Africa or Europe don’t always indicate exactly which species of Homo may or may not have been responsible for their manufacture, as pointed out by Stanley Ambrose…

(who) disagrees with Petraglia’s conclusions. “It is highly speculative to say the eruption had no impact,” he says. Ambrose argues that Petraglia’s sample size is too small to make proper comparisons with other tools. And, he adds, “stone artifacts cannot be used to differentiate Neanderthals from African moderns.”

…which raises the question of exactly which species of Homo would have been living in India at the time of the Toba event. At 74,000 years bp, it is generally assumed that anatomically modern humans were still resident only in Africa, from where they would emerge at around 50,000 bp to commence their purported total replacement of all other species across the globe, culminating in the extinction of the Neanderthals at around 24,500 bp.

However, we know this can’t be true, because as John Hawks points out in his post on this topic, Australia was populated by moderns by at least 50,000 bp, and quite possibly even earlier still, at around 60,000 bp, depending on one’s interpretation of the widely different/wildly conflicting dates given for Mungo Man. And if Homo erectus managed to navigate the open seas to Flores at 840,000 bp, it would appear that modern human behaviour is a great deal more ancient than in its comparatively youthful Middle and Upper Palaeolithic claimed origin, meaning that theoretically any species of human from Homo erectus up to and including early Homo sapiens could have prevailed in a post-Toba environment.