Earth - Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Typhoons....

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: F4 Tornado NASA

Unread postby Sparky » Wed May 18, 2011 4:43 pm

hmmmm, i have not seen this before and i am not experienced at viewing plasma lab discharges....

Image

As you superimpose this image over Thailand area, would this show the plasma descending toward earth?..is the spiral off to the right, which does not seem to be a complete circuit, actually completing the circuit at the center of the spiral, with an end on view.?
Or is it a complete circuit with charges/current moving in both direction within the spiral?...thank you.

Great work!...even if i am having difficulty interpreting it... :oops:
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Re: F4 Tornado NASA

Unread postby tolenio » Thu May 19, 2011 4:39 am

Hi,

I think you need to stretch the image to account for the competing magnetic polar intensity as solar plasma continually hits the planet.

Let me rotate it and stretch it...

Image

That is in more accordance with this...

Image

This image is simply a zoom in of the z-pinch and neural point to the right.

Image

I suspect that the UCLA mapping was not done exactly like the plasma physics of earth operates but close enough to see the correlation. I also suspect the declination of the planet to incoming plasma skews the earth's magnetic mapping a bit too, which UCLA in all likelihood did not do.

That is how I understand it anyway.

Tom
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Re: F4 Tornado NASA

Unread postby tolenio » Thu May 19, 2011 6:01 am

Hi,

If you start to play with the skew that results from declination you can get better alighnments;

Image
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Re: F4 Tornado NASA

Unread postby Sparky » Thu May 19, 2011 10:45 am

"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Earth - Tornados, Hurricanes, Typhoons....

Unread postby kevinjose356 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:56 pm

oh thanks sparky for sharing such helpful thread with us, may GOD bless you :)
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Re: F4 Tornado NASA

Unread postby ElecGeekMom » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:42 am

tolenio wrote:Hello,

I belive that the "Hour Glass Sea" of Mars, and the red spot of Jupiter are artifacts of third equatorial neural magnetic points similar to the one on Earth located near Thailand.

All created by solar plasma injections to the planet's third equatorial magnetic neural point.

It should be a common theme in planets and sun's.

To see it in a sun look to its heliosphere and IBEX data;

Image

This is where Phi comes into play. The path of least resistance taken by energy in a semi closed system. Does that sentence apply to a Birkland currents?

Tom


I could not find anything on the Hour Glass Sea of Mars? What is that?
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Re: Earth - Tornados, Hurricanes, Typhoons....

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:36 am

kevinjose356, since you have made only one post at this site, I have to assume it was dishonest! Possibly some member hiding under another nickname ... You deceitfully pretended to be supportive of my efforts, and arrogantly assumed that I am superstitious. Is there anything at all about you that is honest, not deceitful, and not superstitious?
This is an amazing thread and it is a shame that such as you have injected yourself into it. And sad that your one time post could not have been deleted in a timely manner.
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Re: Earth - Tornados, Hurricanes, Typhoons....

Unread postby onthehook » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:02 am

I also think you should include dust storms and mass outbreaks of disease in this topic, I wonder, has anyone tried to correlate the Massive dust storms over time with proton events from the sun? I notice much more dust in the air during these events, and much more static electricity. It seems to me that with the excess charge, dust and bacteria would repel and float more freely in the air. May explain the massive dust storms that Mars experiences.
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Re: Earth - Tornados, Hurricanes, Typhoons....

Unread postby kiwi » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:40 am

have a look at the "arching" rings that are forming at the bottom of this image of a tornado ... blow the pic up ... looks like an F14 behind it, but must be a Sukoi-copy? .. anyway its a Georgian ( Russian) article .... not sure what is being referred to either concerning air-force involvement ... but that aside its really the "image" of the Tornado .. and the "rings" I think I can see ( think being the operative word) ... http://www.venik4.com/2009/02/tornado-in-georgia/
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Pitfalls in measuring tornadic electro-dynamics

Unread postby PersianPaladin » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:00 am

I bring to light some empirical measurements of electrical fields recorded under the base of tornadoes as they passed under the sensors:-

A number of observers have reported lightning, diffuse luminosity, or other manifestations of electrical activity in tornadoes. To try to quantify these observations, eight instruments with sensors for electric field and other parameters were placed in front of a large tornado that passed by Allison, Texas, on June 8, 1995. The edge of the tornado vortex passed over two of the instruments and near other instruments. When the two instruments were in the low-pressure region near the edge of the vortex, they indicated electric field amplitudes less than about 3 kV/m, which is low compared with amplitudes of 10 kV/m or greater that are often present below thunderclouds. The thunderstorm produced frequent lightning, but there is no evidence from the measurements or from visual observations of lightning in the vortex. However, there was one interesting electrical effect associated with the tornado: the electric field at the two instruments in the vortex relaxed to zero quickly after lightning flashes, whereas the electric field at nearby instruments outside the vortex did not relax quickly after the same lightning flashes. The most likely cause of the rapid relaxation is shielding of the electric field at the ground by charge induced on soil, leaves, grass, and other debris lofted by the strong winds.

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2000/2 ... 0215.shtml

This study found inconclusive results:-

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10. ... -0469(1956)013%3C0269%3AEFIATG%3E2.0.CO%3B2


So what does this say in light of TPOD articles such as this, which allege that tornadoes may well be electrodynamic?

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/ ... charge.htm

The measurement of electric-fields in dust-devils may actually be a red-herring, if tribo-electric effects can be the explanation:-

"It’s now official that dust devils on Earth exhibit strong electric fields, in excess of 4,000 volts per meter" - Wal Thornhill
http://www.holoscience.com/wp/electric-dust-devils/

Wal needs to be careful here with regard to electric fields in my opinion. Why? Well, have a look at this quote from a paper by Charles Chandler :-

"Measuring electric charges from a distance is not possible, because charged double-layers build up, and there is no electric field outside of the double-layers. But moving electric charges generate magnetic fields, and these can be detected from a distance, because there is nothing to shield them. In fact, the magnetic field generated by a tornado was measured at 1.5 × 10−4 gauss from a distance of 9.6 km away using a magnetometer.110 There is currently no construct within the mainstream research community that assigns any significance to these data. Nevertheless, and with or without a construct that can explain it, if there is a strong causal relationship between the strength of the magnetic field and the incidence of tornadogenesis, we should be looking at these data along with the thermodynamic factors when assessing the tornadic risks."

http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/ ... etric#id_7

He is also rather critical of the Electric Universe theory of tornado-genesis:-

Electric Universe — Ionosphere-Surface Current
This theory states that the Earth is negatively charged, and that the atmosphere is a leaky capacitor, where there is a fair-weather current all of the time flowing from the Earth toward outer space, but that unique conditions can reduce the resistance within this capacitor, resulting in an enhanced current.237,238 One such condition would be the reduced pressure within a mesocyclone, which would increase the conductivity of the column of air from 1 km to over 12 km above the surface. This is only a fraction of the distance to the ionosphere, but it traverses the densest part of the atmosphere, and this is the source of 2⁄3 of the resistance between the surface and the ionosphere. Hence the mesocyclone could be opening up a conduit through which a current could flow.

The problem with this theory is that is does not explain vortexes that descend from non-mesocyclonic thunderstorms. It also does not take into account the fact that the global current is extremely weak. The "fair weather field" is something like .1 kV/m, which is vanishingly small compared to the fields in a thunderstorm. So it is far more likely that storm-generated fields are the only forces that could possibly be influential. It also labors under the same criticisms directed at the joule heating theory — the airflows in a discharge vortex are fundamentally different from those in a tornadic vortex.


Chandler cites this study regarding magnetic field flux:-

"Measurements of the magnetic field and earth current in the vicinity of a tornado show large steplike deflections coincident with the touching down of the funnel."
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/157/3 ... 4.abstract

I think regarding dust-devils the electric field and associated magnetic field MIGHT be a result of tribo-electric effects, or it might not. We have to provide proof otherwise. Regardless, electric field measurements inside these vortices can indeed be problematic given the fact that the same electric fields apparently present in dust-devils are NOT so present in tornadoes (which are much stronger). Fields of less than 3kv per meter were measured in the tornadoes (bare in mind the general electric field environment under the storm cloud), but the fields in the dust devils were in excess of 4kv.

As Charles said - it's probably to do with the way the double-layers interact in tornadoes that perhaps shield the electric field. Dust devils, if they are indeed charged-sheath vortexes - would also have double-layers and should, in theory, exhibit the same unremarkable voltage and electric field characteristics of tornadoes. But they do not. Why? Is there a fundamental difference in the capability of double-layers to shield out the electric field depending on the strength of the voltage (i.e. the REAL voltage) across the vertical length of the filament?
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Re: Pitfalls in measuring tornadic electro-dynamics

Unread postby PersianPaladin » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:40 pm

Issues surrounding the EU theory of lightning formation can also be observed when reading analyses such as this:-

The sprite discharge is driven by the quasi-electrostatic (QE) field in the mesosphere following a positive cloud-to-ground (+CG) flash in a thundercloud below


Lightning couples energy directly to the mesosphere and lower ionosphere through quasi-electrostatic (QE) and electromagnetic pulsed (EMP) fields. The fields heat the partly ionised atmosphere and cause additional ionisation, thereby changing the atmospheric conductivity. Electromagnetic waves from lightning discharges may also have an indirect effect on the lower ionosphere via reflection effects or interactions with radiation belt electrons that can be precipitated from the magnetosphere into the upper atmosphere. Perturbations to the ionosphere are observed as perturbations to the amplitude and/or phase of signals from Very Low Frequency (VLF) transmitters used for submarine communications. Quantitative estimates of ionisation and heating by TLEs are still lacking but can in principle be modelled. They hold the promise of new insights into the properties and microphysics of the mesosphere.


http://www.trappa.es/content/thundersto ... system-tea


Charles Chandler does assume that the electric field potential in terrestial particles alone - are enough to generate thunderstorms, lightning and their associated tornadoes.

But he is mistaken to rush to this assumption. Firstly, he needs to actually get reliable measurement of the ACTUAL electric fields that may not be subject to double-layer shielding. He needs to find out how water-particles and other condensation nuclei and their electrical interactions, can - in and of themselves - be suffice to generate sufficient electric fields to power lightning discharges and tornadoes, whilst shielding the true electric fields inside double-layers.

Regarding current measurements of electric fields, we have a scientist interviewed by NPR who stated:-


Dr. DWYER: Well, all the questions about lightning that we don't know. They're all very basic ones, like how does it get started, how does it move? For example, it's a real mystery how lightning gets started up inside the thunderstorms. There never seems to be enough charge up there and big-enough electric field to actually make a spark.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127477667


Charles doesn't address the issue of insufficient charged particles up there to generate the lightning discharges that are observed:-

It's possible that the discrepancy is coming from the fact that electric fields and lightning rates are not actually directly related, and it's easily possible for the electric field to be well beyond the normal threshold for lightning, without discharges occurring. In the laboratory, at standard temperature and pressure, it takes 3,000 kV/m to get an arc discharge in the air. So this is a physical limit that cannot be surpassed, and which is known as the breakdown voltage of the air. Interestingly, lightning becomes probable in fields over 20 kV/m, and virtually certain in fields over 30 kV/m. So meteorological literature talks about 30 kV/m as if it's the breakdown voltage, when really it's only 1⁄100 of the required field. So how is lightning even possible at 30 kV/m?

The answer is that lightning is not a simple, instantaneous arc discharge — it's a complex process. It starts with a flash inside the cloud less than 100 m long, where the potential has exceeded the breakdown voltage of the air. Then, in a process that sometimes last several seconds, the lightning channel elongates. Each stepped leader occurs in a local field in excess of the breakdown voltage, but this process can continue until distant regions with a resting potential far below the breakdown voltage can eventually become connected by a discharge channel. So the electric field meter might be showing only 30 kV/m, but a couple of microseconds before it gets struck by lightning, the field jumps up to 3,000 kV/m, and no physical principles have been violated.

The significance of this is that without the initial flash, the whole process never would have been initiated, and we should theoretically be able to see close to 3,000 kV/m of potential without there being any lightning.

Then the critical question becomes: what causes the initial flash? The quick answer is that nobody knows for sure. It shouldn't be possible to develop the charge densities necessary for an arc discharge, when the charges are held by the air itself, as electrostatic repulsion should prevent it. But we do know that lightning occurs in a turbulent environment. Some of the lay literature states that colliding parcels in a turbulent flow generate static electricity that sets off the lightning strike. It's probably more accurate to think that turbulence simply brings oppositely charged parcels closer together far more rapidly than we'd see in a laminar flow, and this is what increases the local field density beyond the breakdown voltage.

http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/ ... etric#id_7

Charles cannot account for the sort of radiation that lightning storms produce, as this article cites:-

Nobody understands how lightning makes X-rays," says Martin Uman, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Florida. "Despite reaching temperatures five times hotter than the surface of the sun, the temperature of lightning is still thousands of times too cold to account for the X-rays observed."

http://www.livescience.com/2712-lightni ... stery.html

And here:-

The electric fields in thunderstorms appear to be too weak to form lightning, so scientists have been puzzled by how the bolts form. Cosmic rays have also been suggested as a trigger for the flashes.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... ays_2.html

Again, we have weakly measured electric fields. What does this remind you of? It reminds you of the weak electric fields measured inside the tornadoes. Yet, strong perturbations in the Earth's surface magnetic field were detected adjacent to the tornadoes. Perhaps this offers a clue as to the cause of the electro-dynamic environment of the thunder-storm itself. Perhaps there are Birkeland Currents that merge into larger and denser currents extending downward from the ionosphere at specific intervals and generating vorticity within the atmosphere. Like the tornado, and as Charles pointed out - the double-layers of these Birkeland Currents could be shielding the actual electric fields and voltages from being detected.

Still - the question remains, ARE terrestial charge-particle interactions suffice as the initiator of the electrical breakdown? Or do we need a cosmic circuit as the source of the breakdown?

Results from one study:-

Cummer found signs of the missing currents by teaming up with Fuellekrug, who works with magnetic field sensors exceptionally sensitive to ultra-low electromagnetic frequencies. Stationing those sensors in the summer of 1998 at Santa Cruz, Calif., Soccoro, N.M., and Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Fuellekrug focused on three different cases - in Michigan, Minnesota and Oklahoma - where high-altitude sprites followed lightning strikes below by more than 40 milliseconds.

The lightning and sprite events were linked by their timing and locations, the first being logged by the National Lightning Detection Network, while the sprites were video-imaged by University of Alaska researchers.

Applying mathematical modeling analysis to Fuellekrug's much more sensitive measurements, Cummer found continuing cloud-to-ground currents in one event that varied from about 4,000 to 7,000 amperes over a period of about 150 milliseconds. "That number is extremely big," he said. "Most measurements of continuing currents like this in less spectacular lightning are on the order of 100 to 200 amps."

http://ftp.ee.duke.edu/news/?id=211

Now, this begs the question about the anode and cathode dynamics with respect to any leaky capacitor function of the Earth in an ionospheric circuit. Which direction do electrons and positive ions flow respectively? Do we have uni-directional flow? Flows from high to low potential or vice versa or both? Clearly, one could assume a complex circuit in the vicinity of such systems if you are relying on an Electric Universe theory of thunder-storms and their associated tornadic manifestations.

Here, cosmic rays and runaway breakdown are proposed as mechanisms:-

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -lightning

But again, run into problems.

Seems - we still lack compelling data as to the likely cause of terrestial lightning and tornadogenesis. This paper discusses some of the problems and offers some interesting summaries of various studies and potential ways forward:-
http://www.physics.nmt.edu/~rsonnenf/ph ... hysics.pdf

My own humble opinion, as a science journalist and researcher - is that lightning could possible be terrestially generated by charge separation mechanisms as part of the behaviour of ice particles and super-cooled water droplets in a thermodynamic turbulent environment. A voltage gradient develops, and - like we have seen in the Floating-Water-Bridge experiments by Dr Elmar Fuchs - rotating vortices of bi-directional charge could well develop. These could produce double-layers on the annulus of the filaments that shield the actual electric fields from measurement.

I think EU researchers can sometimes be prone to becoming fixated with cosmic electric currents, when the possibility of self-contained circuits are possible. My idea of the Morning Glory Cloud and various filamentary twisting Arcterus clouds also relies only on terrestially-bound circuits that form local field-aligned currents that give additional energy to the thermodynamic components.
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Re: Pitfalls in measuring tornadic electro-dynamics

Unread postby Dotini » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:21 pm

Congratulations on posting an interesting and important new thread. I will follow this with great interest.

Electric fields within thunderclouds have been measured by balloon for many decades, yet this technique has not discovered the full answer to the lightning discharge. It is possible that pockets of higher intensity may be discovered through improved methods.

Also, our friend Dr. Gerald Pollack has made important discoveries as to how water organizes as a gel that may provide additional clues about how, in sunlight, charges separate, line up and and organize into macroscopic battery cells.

http://journals.witpress.com/viewpdf.as ... 0104&ty=ov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd614bK3WZc

Respectfully submitted,
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Re: Pitfalls in measuring tornadic electro-dynamics

Unread postby PersianPaladin » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:23 am

Yes, the work of Pollack is most interesting. Albeit I'm not sure it applies to the current issue of lightning discharge - as such events can also be triggered along thermal gradients in the absence of solar heating.

Regarding lightning formation in particular - there are obviously still issues that frustrate me with regard to the charge polarisation mechanism inside clouds that is said to be responsible for the initial 100 meter wide discharge (with ensuing stepped leaders). The formation of exponentially generated high-energy electrons via the runaway method is persuasive at first glance:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativist ... _avalanche

In theory, this could explain the extremely rapid formation of electric discharges in the stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere and above. The high-acceleration of electrons via cosmic rays initiating the process has been hypothesized:-

http://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~jgladden/ph ... revich.pdf

The runaway breakdown of air occurs when the rate of energy gain experienced by an electron in an electric field exceeds the rate of energy loss through collisions with air molecules. The numerous collisions result in an effective drag force on the electron, which works to slow it down. For subatomic particles like electrons this drag force does not behaves according to our ordinary experience. When you stick your hand outside your car window while driving down the road, you feel a drag force due to the motion of your hand through the air. As you go faster, the drag force increases, and as you slow down the drag force decreases. Electrons, on the other hand, behave differently: when electrons are moving sufficiently fast, the drag force actually decreases the faster the electron goes. As a result, if an electron is moving very fast its drag force can become smaller then the force from the electric field and the electron will run away, continuously gaining energy until it is moving very close to the speed of light. The electric field necessary for runaway breakdown to occur is about 300,000 V/m at sea level and lower at thunderstorm altitudes, a factor of ten lower than the field needed for a conventional breakdown.

As electrons run away, they will occasionally bump hard into air molecules knocking off other fast electrons. These "knock-off" electrons can subsequently run away, producing more energetic "knock-off" electrons and so on. The result is a large avalanche of high-energy electrons that increase exponentially with time and distance.

http://my.fit.edu/~jdwyer/research.htm

But of course, as I pointed out. It's not without its problems as a theory:-


Runaway breakdown can create large amounts of high-energy electrons, as well as x-rays and gamma rays. Interestingly, we know that runaway breakdown works for the low electric fields already seen inside thunderstorms. We also know that it does sometimes happen right before lightning, because we can see big bursts of x-rays and gamma rays shooting out of thunderstorms. In fact, these gamma rays are so energetic and so bright that they have been observed from outer space, 600 kilometers (373 miles) above Earth's surface.

So, does all this add up to cosmic rays as the cause of lightning? No one can be sure at present.

Some researchers, including myself, have voiced skepticism about this mechanism, due to a few technical problems. For example, for lightning to propagate it must form a hot, conductive channel. This channel acts like a metal wire, allowing very big electrical currents to flow. It is difficult to understand how a large, diffuse discharge produced by an air shower and runaway breakdown could result in such a hot channel measuring just a few centimeters across. Alternative explanations of lightning initiation have been proposed, including some that involve a conventional breakdown from water and ice particles, as well as others that involve differing forms of runaway breakdown without cosmic rays. Scientists are busy working on models and experiments to test the validity of all these ideas.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -lightning

Apparently, the native environment in the cloud can create runaway electrons. In other words, lightning may not need runaway electrons (via cosmic rays) to be generated:-

A far greater number of observations support an alternative idea that a special phase and polarity of lightning is needed to accelerate electrons into runaway, with subsequent production of high-energy photons. In other words, the evidence supports the idea that lightning is causing the runaways, rather than the runaways are initiating lightning. The pertinent evidence follows.

http://www.physics.nmt.edu/~rsonnenf/ph ... hysics.pdf


I did have some issues about the formation of sprites in the stratosphere and mesosphere, and I think Wal Thornhill mentioned that in an article he wrote. Albeit apparently there has been interesting work on finding the current and field paths upward:-

Cummer found continuing cloud-to-ground currents in one event that varied from about 4,000 to 7,000 amperes over a period of about 150 milliseconds. "That number is extremely big," he said. "Most measurements of continuing currents like this in less spectacular lightning are on the order of 100 to 200 amps."

His analysis showed 10,000 amperes of continuing current flowed between lightning and sprite discharge during another event. "In an ordinary lightning discharge, you may have a peak current of 10,000 to 20,000 amps," Cummer noted, but for a much shorter time. "These continuing currents are approaching the peak currents in ordinary lightning, but we're talking about durations that are more than 100 times longer."

http://scienceblog.com/community/older/ ... 11871.html

I think the central issue though, is figuring out whether we really do need cosmic rays to initiate lightning. Or are they actually cosmic rays or are they perhaps just free electrons from the solar environment too? Why have gamma and x-ray radiation been measured before lightning discharges occur in clouds? How do the electrons overcome all the frictional effects of the vorticity in the air? And perhaps - are field-aligned currents and double-layers a possible mechanism of creating a force-free configuration for particles to travel?

Lots of questions still to be pondered.

For now though, I do suggest one hypothesis of how such high radiation can be generated from the runaway electrons - via synchrotron radiation generated via helical Birkeland Currents. Synchrotron radiation reflects a helicoidal or circular path of electron movement aligned to the fields in Birkeland Current filaments - and the centripetal acceleration can produce EM radiation across the entire spectrum.
Last edited by PersianPaladin on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pitfalls in measuring tornadic electro-dynamics

Unread postby Dotini » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:55 am

Norio Ise has demonstrated that "Like likes like" in an aqueous environment. http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleL ... P/c000729c
http://faculty.washington.edu/ghp/resea ... n-of-life/

The path described by a cosmic ray through the electric field of a thundercloud may be just the nucleating agent required to organize and collimate a long column of field aligned dipoles into an effective accelerator.

Respectfully submitted,
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Re: Pitfalls in measuring tornadic electro-dynamics

Unread postby PersianPaladin » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:14 am

The helicoidal twist morphology of lightning might possibly be a sign of field-aligned currents within the filament:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stormhighway/5938746412/

The general rotation of the storm itself could be a result of the azimuthal component of atmospheric field-aligned currents in the vertical.
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