What is electricity?

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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby seasmith » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:59 am

Webolife,

Try reading those 50 or so (small) pages linked at the bottom of Forrest Bishop's site:
http://www.forrestbishop.4t.com/EMTV2/EMTVolumeII.htm
and let me know if they answer those questions.

I didn't find anything that did not make sense or that contradicted Heaviside, And
his "Heaviside Signal" dovetails perfectly with my topological alternative to the reductive Particle/Wave models.

:idea:
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Sparky » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:18 pm

thanks for that link, seasmith....at least he admits his is a theory

Theory C. First disclosed In Wireless World, dec80. The third in the sequence (p29) of fundamental theories of electromagnetism. C stands for Catt. Catt realised that when Theory H reversed the causality between electric current and field, it led to the disappearance of the need for current and charge. This excision resolves the Catt Anomaly (p31). p12

Theory H. The second in the series of theories. H stands for Heaviside. "We reverse this; the current in the wire is set up by the energy transmitted through the medium around it ..."

Theory N. The conventional theory of electromagnetism which has ruled for a century since the suppression of Oliver Heaviside and his supporters. A battery yearns to send electric current down wires. If it succeeds, this results in electric field, or flux, between the wires, and magnetic field, or flux, surrounding the current in the wires.

Transverse Electromagnetic Wave. See TEM Wave.
http://www.ivorcatt.co.uk/9_glossary.htm


http://www.ivorcatt.co.uk/2_4.htm
Ions in the battery liquid are not involved, ----Chemical reaction in the battery electrolyte replenishes the reciprocating energy current


Can anyone interpret this?

C theory: Stationary electric and magnetic fields do not exist. Fields travelling at other than the speed of light do not exist.


What about a permanent magnet? :?:
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Jarvamundo » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:36 pm

By the way, Heaviside covers this wave-reflection in his Vol1, in depts in Vol2 and revises Vol3. It's really the beginning of Vol1 and beginning of Vol3 that is needed. Vol2 is generally dedicated to his vector analaysis and operations.

The application of Heaviside's work to "charging of an open transmission line" or hey call it a capacitor is given here:

LV Bewley - Travelling Waves on Transmission Systems - 1933
Power Transforming Series - General Electric
See Chapter IV - "Successive Reflections"
* Charging of an open line with DC page 59
* Charging of a capacitor /resistor Page 64-65 (see charging diagrams)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/62885731/Trav ... on-Systems

Duno if Catt wants to see this, but hey, it is great its all getting talked about.

Kinda blows the 'physicist" view of, electrons bumping along and then sitting on a capacitor plate, out of the water. It begins to dawn on you how much of these crappy explanations need to be done away with.
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Chromium6 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:40 pm

seasmith wrote:
Chromium6 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:26 pm

Just thought this could be thrown in as well...


Chromium6,
Were you looking for Electric Clouds-Electric Universe-Planetary Science ?
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=585&start=315


Thanks seasmith... I'm still a noob on the depth of these forums... :oops:
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby webolife » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:25 pm

All right, I'm getting a better sense for Heaviside and Catt.
I get Heaviside's field induced current mindset, and I'm pretty sure Catt is saying, as I have said in the past, that "electricity" "goes" in both direction along the wire at the same time. This allows me to conclude, though I don't hear Catt saying this, that the effect of electricity is virtually instantaneous from the dam to the light bulb.
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Solar » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:02 pm

webolife wrote:All right, I'm getting a better sense for Heaviside and Catt.
I get Heaviside's field induced current mindset, and I'm pretty sure Catt is saying, as I have said in the past, that "electricity" "goes" in both direction along the wire at the same time. This allows me to conclude, though I don't hear Catt saying this, that the effect of electricity is virtually instantaneous from the dam to the light bulb.


Basically yes.

To that end incident waves, and subsequent reflections owing to the presence of apparatus or an "open", or a "short", produce 'standing waves' along the transmission line. The standing waves don't necessarily move along the transmission line. Where Ivor Catt differs is that he considers the quality called “charge” to be produced at the “edges” of the reciprocating “clouds” - of field energy and its reflections. It’s a feature that occurs when the undefined ‘edges’ of his “cloud” analogy of the field, ‘mix’ - during their interactions as they reciprocate.

“Any apparently steady field is a combination of two energy currents travelling in opposite directions at the speed of light.
(…)
The so-called electric charge is merely the edge of two reciprocating energy currents.”

See: Copper as a Dielectric

An analogy would be the Tempic Field, upon interacting with itself, producing other elemental energetic entities (quanta) ‘secondary’ to it, but which must of necessity both exist and still ‘draw’ their ‘rest energy’ from the original impetus; the interacting “field(s).”
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:10 am

I haven't been able to read much, but it hit me that a battery might be considered as a capacitor.

Would this be a correct view within H or C theory?
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby jacmac » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:12 am

What about the wiring in old houses that is spaced several feet apart. Does this idea hold then.
Also, car 12 volt systems typically run the positive wires to the many devices alone, while using the ground of the frame and the engine as the "return". How does this idea fit when there are not two parallel wires?

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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby johnm33 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:59 am

I'm not sure this helps but here there's an account of someone remote viewing an electron
http://www.eso-garden.com/specials/the_ ... nature.pdf
go to chapter nine , page 102 it's fairly brief
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby webolife » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:25 pm

In listening to and reading Theory C, I am having trouble finding consistency with the 1st law of thermodynamics, ie. conservation of energy. When Catt says the ions in the battery are not involved yet then goes on to say that they recharge the plates, is this not a contradiction, or is he simply trying to indicate that the ions do not "flow" as a part of some disallowed "electric current". If the latter, then I get him, just don't understand why he would say they're not involved.
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:54 pm

jacmac wrote:What about the wiring in old houses that is spaced several feet apart. Does this idea hold then.
Also, car 12 volt systems typically run the positive wires to the many devices alone, while using the ground of the frame and the engine as the "return". How does this idea fit when there are not two parallel wires?

Jack


well, i'm still caught up in N theory.....but, was thinking of running a lead several miles north, then west for a few miles, then south to a load. the other lead would start out south, then west , then north to the load...the electric current wave would basically have to leave the generator and head west between the two output leads...and would span many miles. I can only imagine this C theory when the frequencies are high, and the transmission line is a coax or waveguide, or some other hf line....

webolife , In listening to and reading Theory C, I am having trouble finding consistency with the 1st law of thermodynamics, ie. conservation of energy. When Catt says the ions in the battery are not involved yet then goes on to say that they recharge the plates, is this not a contradiction, or is he simply trying to indicate that the ions do not "flow" as a part of some disallowed "electric current". If the latter, then I get him, just don't understand why he would say they're not involved.


I took that to mean, not involved in current flow. that is why i asked if the battery was a capacitor... :?
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Jarvamundo » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:56 pm

H and C just says the chemical release of energy is 1st delivered into the dielectric, then sinks into the conductor. The "current" "in the conductor" is a secondary artifact of this analysis. It does not 'exist' per se, but is a mathematical descriptor or quantification of the primary action in the field bound by the conductors (reflectors), "an axial sum" if you like.

So yes, the ions don't participate directly in the conductor, but they do participate in the batteries establishment of the "energy wave" or stress in the dielectric.

In my view it's best to look at "the field" as stresses in a physically existant medium; Dielectric or aether.... but it is much harder to conceptually picture in a vacuum, or nothingness... so don't.... they (Maxwell, Heaviside, etc) didn't, so why do you have to.

Re Sparky: On the chemical scale there may very well be some capacitor action or energy wave trapping event, or time division. This may also apply to what we call matter. Fun ideas to explore. But distinction between engineerable philosophy and 'ideas' to be weighted appropriately.

Also, car 12 volt systems typically run the positive wires to the many devices alone, while using the ground of the frame and the engine as the "return". How does this idea fit when there are not two parallel wires?

The ground is the return wire. The engine is a piece of metal, a bounding conductor. Wires need not be perfectly parallel, but it is done so to simplify the mathematics. "perfect case" analysis. Introduce different geometries and you need to treat reflections and radiations, antenna designers do this.
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:16 pm

In listening to and reading Theory C, I am having trouble finding consistency with the 1st law of thermodynamics, ie. conservation of energy. When Catt says the ions in the battery are not involved yet then goes on to say that they recharge the plates, is this not a contradiction, or is he simply trying to indicate that the ions do not "flow" as a part of some disallowed "electric current". If the latter, then I get him, just don't understand why he would say they're not involved.
webolife


H and C just says the chemical release of energy is 1st delivered into the dielectric, then sinks into the conductor.
Jarvamundo


Yes. I think Catt might say that the ion flow in battery, as Jarva says, is not the same as the induced propagation of the Heaviside Signal that reaches the light bulb. He does not repudiate Faraday like he does Maxwell.
Maybe somewhat analogous the the fire under the frying pan. It makes the the pan hot, but it is the flameless heat from the iron that cooks the beans.

Ivor has a contact-him button here:
http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/
for questions.
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:50 pm

~
Or to use his own much better analogy:


This is that when a battery is connected to a lamp via
two wires and the lamp lights, electric current is not involved;
the energy travels in the dielectric at the speed of light. The
conductors, which Heaviside called “obstructors”, guide the
energy, just as rails guide a train, and nothing travels inside the
rails. In the same way as a small amount of field enters the
conductors, so the rails indent slightly. ... Now, above, we have an even
clearer, simpler exegisis.


"Does Faraday Allow Superposition?"
(5 pages)

http://www.ivorcatt.co.uk/x164npa.pdf
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Re: What is electricity?

Unread postby Forrest Bishop » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:57 am

webolife wrote:Whoa... listened to the whole Catt presentation, which I must say was rather painful...
Should have given the Catt World speech about time, c, and energy at the beginning so we could better understand his frame of reference. The field of study was so narrow as to hinder the possibility of application to a unified field view in my opinion. His view of the DC capacitor circuit seems to indicate that he feels the energy flow is AC at a velocity of c. Am I misunderstanding that? I am sorry he was unable to answer the entanglement question, which I think was an appropriate corollary to his circuit field model which seemed to suggest instantaneous resonance happening across the two wire setup from the battery. I am unsure what he was trying to say about action at a distance in the Q/A section. I do appreciate his questioning of the electromagnetic flux model, but feel that most of the things he presented were incomplete and incoherent to me. Perhaps his recent hospitalization contributed to that, or maybe after listening to the entire speech, in which he repeated himself many times, I just don't get it...


Hi webo,

Agreed the presentation of Cat et al needs a better organization. I'm writing a book to that end. The electrical energy flow is what Heaviside calls "Energy Current" to distinguish it from electric current. It is as the Poynting Vector, locked onto the two 'rails' of a transmission line and always moving at c. All delivered electric power is accounted for by Energy Current, therefore electric current has no purpose. cf the first few pages of Electromagnetism I by Ivor Catt, available online at ivorcatt.com

Agreed that the field of study is very narrow. We are only concerned with transient behavior as all behavior is transient. We focus on transmission lines, however all electric 'circuits' are transmission lines.


AC and DC are terms that refer to electric current, not to energy current, which 'always' flows in both directions. The time-varying rates of bi-directional energy current give rise to the notion of AC current, which in reality is an accounting of the hidden and revealed magnetic-field components of the energy current. No one has ever measured an electric current, nor voltage for that matter, cf "The Death of Voltage" http://www.wbabin.net/Science-Journals/Essays/View/3815 What is measured are the 'revealed' portions of energy current density.

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