Electric Clouds

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Corona
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Awesome Video (Electirc Clouds?)

Unread post by Corona » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:42 am

This video is really mind blowing... recorded in August this year it shows what seems to be ice crystals changing to electric fields just above a thundercloud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4sY98zsBH0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJokSDCSePQ


NASA`s explanation for this:

Jumping Sundogs Over Thunderclouds

Explanation: What's happening above those clouds? In the past few years, videos have appeared on the web detailing an unusual but little known phenomenon: rapid light changes over clouds. Upon inspection and contemplation, a leading hypothesis for its cause has now emerged. In sum, this hypothesis holds that a lightning discharge in a thundercloud can temporarily change the electric field above the cloud where charged ice crystals were reflecting sunlight. The new electric field quickly re-orients the geometric crystals to a new orientation that reflects sunlight differently. In other words, a lightning discharge can cause a sundog to jump. Soon, the old electric field may be restored, causing the ice crystals to return to their original orientation. To help this curious phenomenon become better studied, sky enthusiasts with similar jumping or dancing sundog videos are encouraged to share them.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap111108.html

seasmith
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by seasmith » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:09 pm

'
First Pics from NPP satellite:

Image

Image

http://npp.gsfc.nasa.gov/

seasmith
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by seasmith » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:22 am

When this graupel collides with additional water droplets and ice particles, a critical phenomenon occurs: Electrons are sheared off of the ascending particles and collect on the descending particles. Because electrons carry a negative charge, the result is a storm cloud with a negatively charged base and a positively charged top.
Yasa Cestieos,

Would you have a more EM based description of "sheared off" ?
I assume it's not like shearing sheep ?

s

Sparky
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by Sparky » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:01 am

still struggling to understand static charge, but:
Creating electrostatic charge by contact and separation of materials is known as triboelectric charging. It involves the transfer of electrons between materials. The atoms of a material with no static charge have an equal number of positive (+) protons in their nucleus and negative (–) electrons orbiting the nucleus.

When the two materials are placed in contact and then separated, negatively charged electrons are transferred from the surface of one material to the surface of the other material. Which material loses electrons and which gains electrons will depend on the natures of the two materials. The material that loses electrons becomes positively charged, while the material that gains electrons is negatively charged
there was a link in another thread that was for a recent discovery, concerning the transfer of matter as static charge.

one has to be careful cleaning electronics with "air", as huge potentials can be created in the flow which can damage circuit chips....
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seasmith
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by seasmith » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:55 am

When the two materials are placed in contact and then separated, negatively charged electrons are transferred from the surface of one material to the surface of the other material.
Sparky,

Same question:
how ?

:?:

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CharlesChandler
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:44 pm

Triboelectric charging (i.e., static electricity) is the standard explanation for the charge separation mechanism in a thunderstorm, but this is not correct, as it requires dissimilar molecules to come into contact with each other, where the difference in the strength of electron bonds results in electron transfer. If the molecules are identical, this isn't going to happen. So you can't generate any static electricity by rubbing two ice cubes together, the way you could if you rubbed a balloon on your hair.

Here is a quote from one of my previous posts (http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 270#p54641) that describes the most plausible theory I've heard for thunderstorm electrification.
CharlesChandler wrote:The accretion of water vapor into supercooled aerosols and ice crystals, in such a short period of time, obviously needs help from a force more powerful than just random covalent bonding. The most likely candidate is the dipolar nature of water molecules. In the fair weather field (100 V/m), the electric force will not affect the translational velocity of the (as yet neutrally-charged) molecules, but it will polarize them, and this means that with respect to neighboring molecules, each will show opposite charges to the other, resulting in an electrostatic potential between them. This will greatly increase the chance of molecular aggregation.

Still in the presence of the fair weather field, the aggregates then become dipoles on a larger scale, showing a positive charge at the bottom (facing the negatively-charged Earth), and a negative charge at the top (facing the positively-charged ionosphere). This sets up the conditions necessary for electron transfer in particle collisions. A larger particle falling through the field, showing a positive charge on its bottom, will be attracted to a smaller particle in its path, which is showing a negative charge on its top. When they collide, electrons are transferred to the larger particle, and are absorbed by its electron cloud. This leaves the smaller particle positively-charged, which is then repelled by the positive face of the larger particle. When the larger particle falls past the smaller one, there are two possibilities. Either the smaller particle will fall in with the larger particle, attracted to the negative charge at the top of the larger particle, in which case the two particles will merge, or the smaller particle will have been blown too far out of the path, in which case it will be left behind with a net positive charge, and with the larger particle gaining a net negative charge. Obviously, both of these outcomes occur, and both are easy to understand in this framework.

Then, as larger, negatively-charged aggregates fall because of a higher terminal velocity, the main negative charge region develops below the main positive charge region in the storm. This field has the same orientation as the fair weather field (between the negatively-charged Earth and the positively-charged ionosphere). Hence the emerging charge separation enhances the existing field, and strengthens the molecular/particular dipoles, which increases the chance of collisions, which increases the accretion rate and the charge separation process.

Other charging mechanisms have been proposed, such as cosmic radiation, which knocks electrons loose, leaving positive ions behind. The free electron so created might find its way back to the same atom, or if it happens to hit a larger aggregate (such as a hailstone), it might get lost in the large electron cloud of that aggregate. This model also accounts for the larger precipitation developing a negative charge. I think that I can speak for most researchers in saying that the whole story is "all of the above" -- all of the charge separation mechanisms that have been identified (and perhaps others that haven't) are all partially responsible for the effects.
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webolife
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by webolife » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:04 pm

Dr. Gerald Pollock's [University of Washington] research into "structured water" suggests an additional mechanism to Charles' fine set of mechanisms above. Charge [-] is acquired on the leading edge of droplets [or anything... birds, planes, Superman...] moving through the air which contains rising water vapor carrying [-] charge away from the surface of the earth. The polar nature of water causes this "stacking" [also responsible for surface tension, which Pollack has found to be comprised of hundereds of layers of structured water molecules, not just a surface interface phenomenon] of the accumulating water to build up a voltage difference between the "bottom" of the layer[s] to the top, which is measurable by a voltmeter and leads to the possibility of future "water batteries". In a thunderstorm, this accumulation is speeded up by the downward acceleration of the growing droplets, increasing the overall negatively charged surface area of the droplets. Apologies to Gerry, if this explanation is afield of his more cogent ideas.
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by Sparky » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:55 am

ok, guys....here i am, with the least knowledge and intellect, but i must point out the obvious. Rain is not just water. Neither is hail. Air is not just the gases, oxygen, nitrogen, etc...
Rain, hail, and air/atmosphere is a mulligan stew! A mixture of dissimilar elements and molecules.

Rub them together and you get the electron transfer.

You can get molecular transfer between similar matter, leaving areas of different potentials on each. As far as i know it is just magic...but there is a link to a study somewhere in the forums which concludes such...

as for Charles' explanation....though i agree with and appreciate his insight, i am not sure i can visualize it as he does...will need to do some more study for a better understanding.....

*************
EDIT:

also like the info. webo- presented! :!:
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CharlesChandler
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:37 pm

To illustrate the model I was describing, here are some images:

http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/ ... 0Water.png

http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/ ... ration.png

BTW, there is certainly a variety of elements and compounds in the atmosphere, but aside from nitrogen, oxygen, water, and argon, the quantities of all other elements is quite small.

Composition of dry air:
nitrogen = 78.084%
oxygen = 20.946%
argon = 0.934%
all else = 0.036%

Water vapor content is in the range of 0~4%, depending on the humidity.

None of these elements are in the triboelectric series. (Note that air is often found in triboelectric lists, but this is a misnomer. Airplanes certainly develop static electric charges flying through the air, and the airplanes do, indeed, pick up a negative charge, leaving the air positively charged. But this is due to friction, not differences in electron bond strength, which is [my understanding of] the nature of triboelectric charging.)

Also, Dr. Pollack's work with liquid water might not be relevant. The most likely outcome in the collision of two water particles, if one or both of them is liquid, is that they will merge, in which case there will be no net charge separation. Some theorists believe that supercooled aerosols might be involved in the charge separation process, but most believe that only solid water is capable of electron transfer without the subsequent merger of the colliding particles.
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Sparky
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by Sparky » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:59 am

Hey, Charles...i like your theory.....are you taking into consideration the dust, spider webs :D , and other particles? would there be enough to influence your model.?... :oops:
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CharlesChandler
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:00 pm

Hey Sparky,

You have a point there. The "standard composition of air" doesn't include any of the solid particles that could be floating around. I'll have to poke around a bit, but for right now, I don't know.

Cheers!
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mharratsc
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by mharratsc » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:04 am

Heya guys,

Re: Dr. Pollack's work- if he is correct, there is a charging phenomenon afoot in any tensile body of water (of which I'm not certain that a clould actually qualifies as such) wherein photons striking one surface of the water will cause polarization and charge separation.

Question: would a vapor qualify, such as a cloud? Also- what impact would surface charging such as that have on the overall electrical environment of a cloud subsystem?
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

seasmith
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by seasmith » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:09 am

Would you have a more EM based description ..?
seasmith
by mharratsc » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:04 am

Heya guys,

Re: Dr. Pollack's work- if he is correct, there is a charging phenomenon afoot in any tensile body of water (of which I'm not certain that a clould actually qualifies as such) wherein photons striking one surface of the water will cause polarization and charge separation.
M,

That makes the most sense of all, so far...

s

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CharlesChandler
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:39 pm

Hey Mike,
mharratsc wrote:...wherein photons striking one surface of the water will cause polarization and charge separation.
I can understand polarization within a particle due to mechanisms such as Dr. Pollack describes, but I don't understand how this is going to result in a charge separation between particles.

One existing theory is that photons (especially high-energy cosmic rays) knock electrons loose. Such free electrons might then fall back into the same molecule, resulting in no charge separation, or they might hit a larger particle in the vicinity, in which case they might get lost in the electron cloud of the larger particle, and a charge separation between the two particles will have occurred. This would account for heavier particles that fall (eventually to the ground) having a net negative charge (because their electron clouds could absorb a few extra electrons), and smaller particles lingering in the anvil of the storm having a net positive charge.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll spend the rest of the day sitting in a small boat, drinking beer and telling dirty jokes.

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mharratsc
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Re: Electric Clouds

Unread post by mharratsc » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:02 am

Heya Charles,

I didn't exactly commit everything from Dr. Pollack's presentation to memory, but I recall hearing that enough ionization occurs from this effect that they are investigating a principle of a 'water battery', and also electrical water filtration, based upon what has been discovered so far.

Curiouser and curiouser, eh? :?
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington

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