What is time?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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What is time?

Unread postby lizzie » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:26 am

An "Artistic Model of Time" for all the artists in the forum.

The Foundation for the Law of Time
http://lawoftime.org/

It is a comprehensive whole system discovery which demonstrates that time is the universal factor of synchronization. The principle formulation of the Law of Time -T(E) = Art, Energy factored by Time equals Art - accounts for the intrinsic elegance of all natural phenomena.

The corollary formulation of the Law of Time states that the velocity of time is instantaneously infinite, a factor which accounts for telepathy and various paranormal phenomena. Yes, time is faster than the speed of light! And we must investigate the mind in order to understand time.
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby Plasmatic » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:29 pm

"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby tesla » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:33 pm

A thought;
Time is not an event, like the weather, but a phycological phenomenon. When you are doing something you enjoy, time flies. When you are waiting in the dentist chair listening to the drill, time drags on. If we did not have any watches, how would we cope? Just because the sun takes 365.25 days to go around the sun and the earth takes 24 hours to rotate once on its axis is not a definition of time. If we had evolved on a different planet with different rotation aspects, out concept of time would be different.
There is now such thing as the past or the present, the current moment,now, is all you have. To think about the past so make it real is always in the present moment. To think about the future and when that point is reached, it is always in the now, the present moment.

Working out the electric universe is easy compared to working out what time actually is!

Tesla
"The most uncommon thing is common sense."
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby MGmirkin » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:49 pm

I tend to think of time, well maybe the perception of time in terms of a fluid medium. IE, it's continuous ("analog" rather than "digital" or "quantized"). It's not broken up into moments, but is a smooth continuum. Like a fluid, you can take any discrete point and assign it some characteristics like a vector for momentum, pressures or forces acting on that point, etc. Each "moment," one must redraw the entirety of reality. Each moment those vectors and forces change. Once changed, they can't be de-changed. We exist in the current moment. The state(s) that were what we'd call "past" moments no longer exist. They've been overwritten by the current moment. "Future" moments do not yet exist or haven't yet been "written" into the current moment. However, if the universe operates like a large piece of clockwork, then if one had all the state information and a sufficiently powerful computer, one could "predict" future moments. Of course the computer would probably have to be larger and more powerful than the entirety of the universe to hold and process that much data in advance of the actuality. ;o]

Anyway, that's my thought on the matter. That said, I think it's possible that so-called "islands of stability" can develop wherein structures can be formed and/or retained which in some way mirror or capture some level of detail about the "prior state(s)" of reality. Though, I'd surmise that they will be of considerably lower quality or data quantity than the actual full state of reality. In that way, such representations might be considered minorly holographic. IE, you can capture a bit of data, but it will be of considerably lower quality / quantity than the original. IE, a photograph may be a 2D representation of an otherwise 3D object, and may not give data about various states like momentum, pressure, accurate colors, etc. And, eventually, even those islands of stability may destabilize and/or be wiped out, thus losing whatever information may have been stored therein.

I don't think that one could "rewind time" to a prior state without literally reversing every interaction in the universe during the "time" between the current moment and the prior state you would want to re-create. And, I just don't think that there's any way to freeze the current state and literally reverse the flow / interactions to get back to a specific moment, then stop time and send it flowing forward (reversing the reverse of time; oy, that's confusing!)...

So, yeah, my opinion is that time is simply a constantly changing / rewritten "now." The past no longer exists. The future states have not yet been reached (but will eventually).

Good times! As it were...
~Michael
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby Solar » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:08 pm

"Time", is a mental construct to quantify the duration of events.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby Plasmatic » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:19 pm

Or said another way :

"man's life span is a continuum whose only integrator is his conceptual faculty."
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby Solar » Sat May 10, 2008 4:03 pm

Plasmatic wrote:Or said another way :

"man's life span is a continuum whose only integrator is his conceptual faculty."

That is correct.

"Newsflash: Time May Not Exist
Not to mention the question of which way it goes..."

“The meaning of time has become terribly problematic in contemporary physics,” says Simon Saunders, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford. “The situation is so uncomfortable that by far the best thing to do is declare oneself an agnostic.”

“One finds that time just disappears from the Wheeler-DeWitt equation,” says Carlo Rovelli, a physicist at the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France. “It is an issue that many theorists have puzzled about. It may be that the best way to think about quantum reality is to give up the notion of time—that the fundamental description of the universe must be timeless.”

No one has yet succeeded in using the Wheeler-DeWitt equation to integrate quantum theory with general relativity. Nevertheless, a sizable minority of physicists, Rovelli included, believe that any successful merger of the two great masterpieces of 20th-century physics will inevitably describe a universe in which, ultimately, there is no time.

The possibility that time may not exist is known among physicists as the “problem of time.” It may be the biggest, but it is far from the only temporal conundrum. Vying for second place is this strange fact: The laws of physics don’t explain why time always points to the future.

” But as Einstein proved, time is part of the fabric of the universe. Contrary to what Newton believed, our ordinary clocks don’t measure something that’s independent of the universe. In fact, says Lloyd, clocks don’t really measure time at all.

Here's my favorite part:
“I recently went to the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Boulder,” says Lloyd. (NIST is the government lab that houses the atomic clock that standardizes time for the nation.) “I said something like, ‘Your clocks measure time very accurately.’ They told me, ‘Our clocks do not measure time.’ I thought, Wow, that’s very humble of these guys. But they said, ‘No, time is defined to be what our clocks measure.’ Which is true. They define the time standards for the globe: Time is defined by the number of clicks of their clocks.”

What a wake up call.

“We never really see time,” he says. “We see only clocks. If you say this object moves, what you really mean is that this object is here when the hand of your clock is here, and so on. We say we measure time with clocks, but we see only the hands of the clocks, not time itself. And the hands of a clock are a physical variable like any other. So in a sense we cheat because what we really observe are physical variables as a function of other physical variables, but we represent that as if everything is evolving in time.

instead of introducing this fictitious variable—time, which itself is not observable—we should just describe how the variables are related to one another.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby junglelord » Sat May 10, 2008 4:51 pm

It is dimensional. That is the first thing I would say. It is the standard way to view it in almost any light.
That is the second dimensional construct of APM and the standard model (if you view 3-D space as one). In APM we view the reciprocal of time, frequency.
We view two dimensions of frequency/time, linear and distributed.
Frequency in APM is defined as the speed of light divided by the Compton Wave length (which is the constant of length in APM.)

Simple yet profound.
:D

As well one is aware that there is both a forward and a reverse time function to a EM pulse. This is due to the 2 spin construct of the quantum structure when it makes a sub atomic particle. This is due to the fifth dimension of discontinuous angular momentum compression on the fourth dimension of continous charge tension. That is tensegrity and is the structural engineering of the universe from non material dimensional overlay to universal galactic web tensegrity structure and all levels in between.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat May 10, 2008 5:17 pm

Got time for another one?
http://www.jayweidner.com/2012Topology.html

Time for Timaeus?
[Note: the same and the like are the circle of the zodiac and the circle of the other or diverse is the solar ecliptic]
Time, then, and the heaven came into being at the same instant in order that, having been created together, if ever there was to be a dissolution of them, they might be dissolved together. It was framed after the pattern of the eternal nature, that it might resemble this as far as was possible; for the pattern exists from eternity, and the created heaven has been, and is, and will be, in all time. Such was the mind and thought of God in the creation of
time. The sun and moon and five other stars, which are called the planets, were created by him in order to distinguish and preserve the numbers of time; and when he had made their several bodies, he placed them in the orbits in which the circle of the other was revolving,—in seven orbits seven stars.
First, there was the moon in the orbit nearest the earth, and next the sun, in the second orbit above the earth; then came the morning star and the star sacred to Hermes, moving in orbits which have an equal swiftness with the sun, but in an opposite direction; and this is the reason why the sun and Hermes and Lucifer overtake and are overtaken by each other. To enumerate the places which he assigned to the other stars, and to give all the reasons why he assigned them, although a secondary matter, would give more trouble than the primary. These
things at some future time, when we are at leisure, may have the consideration which they deserve, but not at present.
Now, when all the stars which were necessary to the creation of time had attained a motion suitable to them, and had become living creatures having bodies fastened by vital chains, and learnt their appointed task, moving in the motion of the diverse, which is diagonal, and passes through and is governed by the motion of the same, they revolved, some in a larger and some in a lesser orbit—those which had the lesser orbit revolving faster, and those which had the larger more slowly. Now by reason of the motion of the same, those which revolved fastest appeared to be overtaken by those which moved slower although they really overtook them; for the motion of the same made them all turn in a spiral, and, because some went one way and some another, that which receded most slowly from the sphere of the same, which was the swiftest, appeared to follow it most nearly. That there might be some visible measure of their relative swiftness and slowness as they proceeded in their eight courses, God
lighted a fire, which we now call the sun, in the second from the earth of these orbits, that it might give light to the whole of heaven, and that the animals, as many as nature intended, might participate in number, learning arithmetic from the revolution of the same and the like. Thus then, and for this reason the night and the day were created, being the period of the one most intelligent revolution. And the month is accomplished when the moon has completed her orbit and overtaken the sun, and the year when the sun has completed his
own orbit. Mankind, with hardly an exception, have not remarked the periods of the other stars, and they have no name for them, and do not measure them against one another by the help of number, and hence they can scarcely be said to know that their wanderings, being infinite in number and admirable for their variety, make up time. And yet there is no difficulty in seeing that the perfect number of time fulfils the perfect year when all the eight
revolutions, having their relative degrees of swiftness, are accomplished together and attain their completion at the same time, measured by the rotation of the same and equally moving. After this manner, and for these reasons, came into being such of the stars as in their heavenly progress received reversals of motion, to the end that the created heaven might imitate the eternal nature, and be as like as possible to the perfect and intelligible ani-
mal.
Plato, Timaeus. Jowett trans.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby rangerover777 » Sat May 10, 2008 5:47 pm

Time is not : energy, matter, particles, light, magnetism, aether, vacuum, emptiness or nothingness.
On the other hand any change of the above list, can be measured by time. So time is more like
a framework to allow our brain to capture reality. That also means that reality can exists without
our perception… Or in other words, the linear way our brain is programmed does not effect the
surrounding universe. So why do we need it at all ?

One reason is to keep the “program running” (like in computers), which in some way limit our
perception of cause and effect into two dimensional view (linear). Time belong to the intellectual
part of us, but there are others minds and state of minds that are alive within us : emotional,
instinctive, soul and other “higher bodies” extending up. Whether you believe in that or not - does
not change it…

I think trying to analyze the question of Time using only our Intellectual side - is quite limiting.
It’s like measuring the mass, speed and other properties of a distant star with only the tools
you have at hand, right now… Or watching a phenomena with “Too much close-up” without
taking into consideration the surrounding… Our intellectual part can function much better using
impressions from the emotional, intuition and other parts of us.

For instance LIGHT. If you examine it only from the intellect, you missing most of the picture,
since it’s not only about speed, particles, energy, math, geometry. It is a “life giving force”, it is
forming and transforming our universe in many senses. Even in the emotional sense, light is
happiness, openness, honesty, healthy (physically and mentally) and many more meanings.

The emotional part of us not always obey time. You can ask yourself : what if I was…..? Then now
it would be different. Which is a completely legitimate question - very realistic. That the intellectual
part cannot grasp.

I think part of our programming inflicted on us due to the course modern science took (since
the ancient Greeks, up to day) : dry facts, analyzing, logic conclusion, math, muscular,
linear thinking, “disintegrating nature” into particles, laws, measurements, categories,
names and theories.

While ignoring the other parts of the human, which when working in balance with the intellectual one,
could lead to integration, harmony, “larger perspective”, more refine and much closer to the truth…

And all this comes even before talking about TIME…

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Re: What is time?

Unread postby rangerover777 » Sat May 10, 2008 8:10 pm

Sorry to deviate from Time for a short while (no worry, it will take only two minutes, lol).

This phenomena called “modern science” is quit fascinating. Instead of exploring nature,
it inventing nature… Instead of integrating the knowledge from the different branches of
science (which happen not too often), it keeps the “departments” apart, since it’s inherited
urge to categorized, isolate and invent do not allow integration and “expansion of aspects”,
which may harm it’s “basic instinct urges”…. And if a “Sound Base” would be found one
day (where everything starts, for instance), a lot of embarrassment going to take place…Let
alone re-writing….

The declared enemies are : non-rational, intuition, beauty (which is mathematic, believe it or not),
philosophy (healthy for “astronauts”), Souls, Spiritualism, UFO’S, God in general, Mysticism,
Symbolism, Creativity, and anything that does not allow the human “intellectual center” free entry
alone by itself.

It goes to such extent, that a child 8 years old knows that there are many millions of planets
in the sky, while a professor in astronomy know about 130 of them. Or in other words “whatever
we did not discovered yet - cannot exist”.

That’s why if you want to explore the question of time, you need to approach it from
some “Unorthodox” angles and “out of the box” thinking and intuition. It have symbolic aspects,
it goes, faster, slower, sidewise, backward, gaps, jumps, co-existence, simultaneously, it poses
angular momentum laws and much more. It all depends from which window you are looking at….
And how far from your circle you are willing to go…


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Re: What is time?

Unread postby Plasmatic » Sat May 10, 2008 8:46 pm

Or in other words “whatever
we did not discovered yet - cannot exist”.


I think your mixing something up. Theres a difference in saying something is impossible based on logic and objective observations of reality ,and saying something "cannot exist", simply because "we havent discovered it".
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby bboyer » Sat May 10, 2008 9:46 pm

arc-us wrote:
junglelord wrote:You cannot put any of the three dimensions in anything, they are non material.
You cannot put time in a bucket either.
Yet all four are quite real.
In fact they are considered as real dimensions.


<snip>

So it's not about toting around buckets full of mental concepts like dimensions. But it is about relating those self-same material concepts to the denser, explicit material reality that we want to measure.

Time doesn't go with buckets, although buckets like every physical thing (even thoughts and concepts) do exhibit duration. Again, mixing metaphors. Time goes with clocks and time pieces. And cesium "atoms" or whatever they're using as the standard nowadays. Like length goes with tapes and sticks. It's just a superimposition of conceptual thoughts onto denser physical objects.

In the case of time, a stick wouldn't do unless it was vibrating at a certain detectable, reliable rate. Sticks don't usually do that. But compressible watch springs, oscillating quartz crystals, vibrating bits of cesium - physical things that move with a consistent rate that correlate well with our traditional sense of days and nights those are useful "time sticks." Tracking, measuring the duration of some motion is again a materially mental ongoing activity. But it is completely useless to think of time as a THING, and most particularly useless to think it's something immaterial that somehow stands on its own AS A DIMENSION. It is the THOUGHT of time that gives us the sensation that it exists as an entity of its own right. It is entirely and completely conceptual.

As you have said - but I have to question whether you really live it and know it to be true - the only time there is is NOW. And that cannot be measured and is truly immaterial. If you start counting "The Now" then you are no longer IN the now but are IN your mind distracted from The Now by keeping track of past-present-future "dimensional" time; an illusion. Honestly, if you really, fully knew that then I don't think you'd be granting any credence to the likes of Bearden and whoever else is advocating such things as waves traveling in "backward" time as something that supposed to be meaningful.


From this thread Material from Non Material Linear Thread
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby Plasmatic » Sat May 10, 2008 11:06 pm

Im with you RC. even if that makes you want to hide . :lol: :) ;)
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: What is time?

Unread postby bboyer » Sat May 10, 2008 11:57 pm

Plasmatic wrote:Im with you RC. even if that makes you want to hide . :lol: :) ;)


:twisted: ... only da shadow knows. :lol:
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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