Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Tue May 06, 2008 5:37 am

That's it fer memory lane on this one.

- 30 -
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby moses » Tue May 06, 2008 7:56 am

The idea that the Earth was blanketed in a diffuse atmospheric glow giving
rise to this as an explanation of there once being a formless void, and also
assisting in the theory that Saturn, and Earth, came from outer space, needs
thinking about. If there is enough energy for glow, then there would very
likely be Birkeland currents about, and these would be much brighter than the
glowing double layer around Saturn or the Earth. So there would be plenty
happening in the sky on any planet in the universe. Either seeing stars or
seeing Birkeland currents.

I still see Saturn and Jupiter being the result of a split of a larger planet. And
then it would be likely that Earth and Mars were born in this splitting process,
or later from Saturn or Jupiter. That Earth or Mars were captured later seems
unlikely. Maybe this system of planets, Saturn-Jupiter, entered the Solar System
at some time. I'll be reading the Mythology section keenly.

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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Tue May 06, 2008 10:55 am

Haven't read any Cardona, so maybe the de Grazia/Milton model is not as probable as whatever he has come up with. But as it stands I think all the current players were part of the original system that broke apart for whatever reason. I really liked their concept of what would have been the glow discharge mode "plenum" between-amongst the original binary partners. And these were binary stars, not just a couple of "gas giants." Not that I think it will ever happen, but until humanity can get a probe into the interior of a brown dwarf or red giant, not to mention starting off with the likes of Saturn or Jupiter, there is no way of knowing what the true possibilities are beneath the external glow. But, if anything, any hypothesis of pre-history/pre-homo sapiens Earth is realistically going to remain in the realm of imagination and Science-Fantasy. In my opinion the road can fairly convincingly trail back as far to DT's Saturn Hypothesis insofar as the comparative mythological evidence supports it as it does. Prior to that, it's truly anyone's game to play (and to know for themselves).
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Tue May 06, 2008 12:03 pm

moses wrote:<snip>
I'll be reading the Mythology section keenly.

Mo


Likewise.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue May 06, 2008 4:34 pm

Bryan,
I've just finished reading through this thread and for what it's worth I consider it to be on the New Insights side of the fence. Those rational, objective, scientist johnnies can have the other side to play with their H-bombs and other, sundry WMD.
It's late here but I will probably post something tomorrow (which is later today).
Peace
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby moses » Tue May 06, 2008 6:36 pm

But, if anything, any hypothesis of pre-history/pre-homo sapiens Earth is realistically going to remain in the realm of imagination and Science-Fantasy. Arc-us
I think that we can reasonably expect to determine whether Earth came from Saturn.
It will be just a matter of probing through Saturn's atmosphere to see whether there
is any solid ground there, even if it is the core. I'd expect advances in our probing
abilities so that we will determine if Saturn came from the Sun, for example. And I
also believe that humans are quite capable of accessing all of the past through
psychic means. And I'd expect the entire history of everything to be in some time
capsule somewhere on Earth, or maybe Mars.
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Tue May 06, 2008 7:54 pm

moses wrote:But, if anything, any hypothesis of pre-history/pre-homo sapiens Earth is realistically going to remain in the realm of imagination and Science-Fantasy. Arc-us
I think that we can reasonably expect to determine whether Earth came from Saturn.
It will be just a matter of probing through Saturn's atmosphere to see whether there
is any solid ground there, even if it is the core. I'd expect advances in our probing
abilities so that we will determine if Saturn came from the Sun, for example.


Perhaps, but personally I don't think any conclusions would be particularly reliable.

And I also believe that humans are quite capable of accessing all of the past through
psychic means. And I'd expect the entire history of everything to be in some time
capsule somewhere on Earth, or maybe Mars.
Mo


I think the term "psychic" falls way short of the mark, particularly as it's commonly known and promoted within the homo sapien circle. And as in the Memory of Water topic(s) in the Cymatics thread mentioned ealier, that is where I believe your "history of everything" exists. Part and parcel of the Earth's composition itself, as with all bodies of whatever scale, not to mention within the plasma or aetheric fields around and throughout all bodies (including mental and emotional ones).
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Tue May 06, 2008 7:58 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Bryan,
<snip>
It's late here but I will probably post something tomorrow (which is later today).
Peace


Cool. Looking forward to it, Phil.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed May 07, 2008 12:55 pm

My contribution to crack-pot corner.

"De Grazia developed his own version of Velikovsky's theories, which he called "quantavolution" to denote his holistic theory of sudden, leaping, large scale changes as the major factor in natural history, evolution, and human development".


"His "Solaria Binaria Theory" originates the solar system from a nova of the Sun and a stretched, lessening electric arc to a binary, now practically disappeared, around which the planets evolved".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_de_ ... tavolution

I'm not a big fan of Grazia, to me he's just another modern expert re-inventing the wheel and plastering it with his own vocabulary.

More words, less understanding.
Hold fast to the core.

I Ching, Verse 5. Bart Marshall trans.

Though wisdom is common, yet the many live as if they had a wisdom of their own.

Heraclitus Fr 2.

There appears also to be an internal inconsitency in Grazia's work, in that he does not appear to subscribe to either the Big Bang or Darwininism yet his theory proceeds from the same basic assumptions. He sees the Universe beginning from some random act and going through a series of apparently random changes and life on Earth as having started from the basic and moving by quantavolution (punctuated equilibrium?) to the complex, i.e. us.
This leads to an unnecessarily negative and pessimistic outlook: catastrophes turning up unannounced and problems with the human brain.
I prefer a positive and optimistic view: catastrophes are as regular as clockwork and the brain is as good as it can be.(Eh?) :shock:

To speak a short time is the way of nature.
High winds blow out before morning.
Hard rain subsides in a day.

What issues these?
The realm of heaven and earth.
If the realm of heaven and earth cannot maintain duration,
what chance has man?
This is why one embraces Dao.

I Ching V.23.

This world, which is the same for all, no one of gods or men has made; but it was ever, is now and ever shall be an ever-living Fire, with measures kindling and measures going out.

Heraclitus Fr. 30.

[Calm down everyone, he's not talking about plasma. Though plasma is part of what he is talking about].

"In many cultures, there is said to have been an original chaos or world vapor and a catastrophic event from which the father of the gods was born and from him (or her) was born the succession of gods. Why "born" instead of having always been in existence?"

http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavo ... tro_01.htm

The simple answer to his question is that what he calls 'gods' are as much a part of creation as we and creation itself has not always been in existence. The clue is in the name: creation is that which has been created. The logos (small 'l' - part of the Logos, capital 'L') of creation is to create.

Dark, invisible, it [Dao] only seems to be.
It is the child of No-Thing
and the father of God.

I Ching V. 4

Mortals are immortals and immortals are mortals, the one living the other's death and dying the other's life.

Heraclitus Fr. 62

That's enough of Grazia for now. Coming up next one of my analogies, but first, borrowing from the world of alchemy, think 'from the subtle to the gross'.
Imagine yourself and seven other people on a circular stage. Your head is the planet Earth. The other heads represent the seven planets (five planets plus two luminaries). Each of the other heads are wearing a light which gives out the colour associated with that planet, e.g.
orange for the Sun; green for Venus; red for Mars, etc. Let us further assume that each colour is the lighest shade of that colour.
The movements of the eight are choreographed to simulate those of the solar system. You will see that at any given moment in the perambulations of the eight, your head (Earth) is bathed in a certain combination of the seven colours. Regardless of the actual combination, it will always be within certain parameters given that the shade of the individual colours does not change.
That set of combinations permits a certain type or set of lifeforms to inhabit the Earth. Let us call that Act 1 - The Golden Age.
For Act 2 - The Silver Age, all the seven colours drop down to the next deepest shade. This again produces a set of possible combinations which also dictates the type of lifeforms which inhabit the Earth.
Ditto Act 3 - The Bronze Age and Act 4 - The Iron Age.
You change colour for sound or radio frequency or whatever. I think the mechanism for the change of the physical body of the lifeform is DNA. I think it is switched on remotely by the change of frequency (or whatever) brought about by the celestial change.
Any of that make sense?

lk wrote:
"It is our system of distantly orbiting planets that seems the odd one out. In fact it argues in favor of a galactic traffic accident between the Sun and a sub-Brown Dwarf like Jupiter or Saturn".


Here we go again with the accident thing. There are no such things as 'accident', 'coinicidence', 'chance', 'randomness' or anything else along those lines. All works according to the Logos. The fact that we being humans can't see the 'reasons' doesn't mean that they are not there. Cause and effect is not linear; it works in 360 degrees in every direction.

Arc-us wrote May 4, 2007:
"That there are sane families of life out there in contrast to what we experience in this battered, remote and isolated family structure where the siblings are either nearly dead (Mars), complete hot-heads (Venus). or arrogantly and ... somewhat ... psychopathically inclined towards self-destruction (Earth)".


We are not 'battered, remote and isolated', neither are capable of self-destructing. There is a paradox in our tin-pot relative Universe: that which appears 'real', i.e. the physical world, is not - it is maya (in the Vedic sense). That which appears illusory and phantasmorgorical is Real.

Same post:
"Here's another Mad Idea. Maybe the Earth's mental morphogenetic field* as it has evolved through humanity is also far from typical".


You are correct here; it is not typical, it is unique to us because we created it. We are part of creation creating.

This bicameral mind thing, for a kick-off, is a misnomer. It is the brain which is bicameral not the mind. To assign cause to the brain is wrong - it can only do what the mind tells it - hence the internal dialogue. Put another way, the brain is only the organ of the mind; it's the lower, animal, Earthly part. Only ignorance and or laziness lets the brain do the driving. The internal dialogue is between what Plato among others would call the lower mind and the higher mind. This is one of the reasons why various Wisdom traditions talk of speaking from the heart - it by-passes the brain. Talk to the organ-grinder, not the monkey. It works too.

"They are estranged from that with which they have most constant intercourse".

Heraclitus Fr. 72.

"Stand on solid ground.
Go deep into the heart.
Speak only what is true".

I Ching V.8

Still the same post (sheesh):
"Now all things physical change, they evolve. Which implies that this idyllic (in retrospect) state of affairs is not inherently lasting and like all things, is subject to change. But what if the caretakers - not through evil intent, but through the sheer joy of ignorance in experimentation - what if they violated a Law of Tolerance & Endurance that may be implicit in evolutionary process".


1. All things are in a constant state of change, nothing remains still or static for a moment. There is not only evolution, there is also involution. We (being humans) are currently at the junction of involving and evolving. That is to say, we have involved down through G, S, B, and are now at the end of the Iron Age. We will now evolve (or are evolving - depends who you ask) back to the Bronze Age.

"We step and do not step into the same rivers; we are and are not".

Heraclitus Fr. 49a.

2. No Laws can be violated either knowingly or unknowingly. Everything is going according to plan or Logos.

"The sun will not overstep his measures; if he does, the Erinyes, the handmaids of Justice will find him out".

Heraclitus Fr. 94.

"Dao is the uncarved block.
Timeless, undefined, infinitesimally subtle.
None is its master".

I Ching V.32.

Tesla wrote May 24, 2007:
"Way back in 500-600 B.C. in Greece, Parmenides and Empedocles were telling us roughly the same thing. This was a time when science, philosophy and mysticism were all combined. It would be surprising to scientists today how Pythagoras really got his theories on which we base so much of our maths today".


Spot on that. It is only we 'moderns' who insist upon separating knowledge into different topics. This has led to over-specialisation - all these academics being 'experts' of their own little pigeon-holes.

So ends page 1 of the thread. (I'm inhaling the comments of Pfoenix and fungus).

Be good, people.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed May 07, 2008 2:03 pm

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:10 am
Post subject:
OP="Pfhoenix"

Your appeals to emotion are particularly bothersome. Humanity's consciousness? Who I think I am? Who else might I be? Plato would be proud, as would Kant and Hegel, the two philosophers directly responsible for the mindset that led to the Nazis in power in Germany.


Holy Ravioli :!:
Kant died in 1804 and Hegel in 1831 so to say they are "directly responsible" for Hitler's coming to power in 1933 is stretching things a bit. The implication that the average Nazi voter would have read one or both of these two gentlemen is rickidicklious.
But there again, this is the Mad Ideas section. :lol:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed May 07, 2008 3:13 pm

Arc-us wrote June 17th, 2007:
The suggestion would be that Earth is an evolutionary ... plane ... in an electrical universe. I'm suggesting that perhaps, like EM energy itself, that all things, organic and inorganic, all strata are likewise within a spectrum of manifestation, of physical appearance in form and function. (refer also to the Cymatics thread) All co-dependent, all reciprocal one to another. That one expression might be on a "higher" wavelength of manifestation relative to others below it does not imply superiority or inferiority of being or function. The absence of the smallest would diminish the entire spectrum of what is. Not what might have been or will be, but what IS. But I don't view it as a static spectrum in terms of the forms that comprise it. More like a hierarchy of dynamic trans-formation (transmutation, if you like, tho' I don't think that is as accurate). The framework of the spectrum may be more or less static, I don't know.


I agree with that (if I understand correctly). Below is the chapter headings from The Kybalion by Three Initiates. It's a great little book (pp60) a damned fine read, most illuminating and covering many things mentioned in various threads on this forum..
1. The Principle of Mentalism - THE ALL is MIND; The Universe is Mental.
2. The Principle of Correspondence - As above, so below; as below, so above.
3. The Principle of Vibration - Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.
4. The Principle of Polarity - Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.
5. The Principle of Rhythm - Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum-swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.
7. The Principle of Cause and Effect - Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.

The book can be downloaded from here:
http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/kybalion.pdf
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Wed May 07, 2008 4:07 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:
Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:10 am
Post subject:
OP="Pfhoenix"

Your appeals to emotion are particularly bothersome. Humanity's consciousness? Who I think I am? Who else might I be? Plato would be proud, as would Kant and Hegel, the two philosophers directly responsible for the mindsetthat led to the Nazis in power in Germany.


Holy Ravioli :!:
Kant died in 1804 and Hegel in 1831 so to say they are "directly responsible" for Hitler's coming to power in 1933 is stretching things a bit. The implication that the average Nazi voter would have read one or both of these two gentlemen is rickidicklious.
But there again, this is the Mad Ideas section. :lol:


The claim was for the "mindset" which led to etc etc. But, please, I ask for self-moderation and request that we go no further down that road with this topic.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Wed May 07, 2008 4:19 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:<snip>

This leads to an unnecessarily negative and pessimistic outlook: catastrophes turning up unannounced and problems with the human brain.
I prefer a positive and optimistic view: catastrophes are as regular as clockwork and the brain is as good as it can be.(Eh?) :shock:

<snip>


Perhaps the "truth" lies somewhere between the extremes, then. Or better said, the "somewhere" where the extremes (polarities) are reconciled and are as reciprocal complements one to the other. As you have quoted elsewhere the relationship of the 1 to the 2 to the 3 (and conversely, the 3 to the 2 to the 1).
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby junglelord » Wed May 07, 2008 4:57 pm

Greycloud your very cool, I love your I Ching. I also love your final sentence in this quote, a wonderful sense of humour and satire mixed with so much truth. I busted my gut several times over that one.
:D
Same post:
"Here's another Mad Idea. Maybe the Earth's mental morphogenetic field* as it has evolved through humanity is also far from typical".

You are correct here; it is not typical, it is unique to us because we created it. We are part of creation creating.

This bicameral mind thing, for a kick-off, is a misnomer. It is the brain which is bicameral not the mind. To assign cause to the brain is wrong - it can only do what the mind tells it - hence the internal dialogue. Put another way, the brain is only the organ of the mind; it's the lower, animal, Earthly part. Only ignorance and or laziness lets the brain do the driving. The internal dialogue is between what Plato among others would call the lower mind and the higher mind. This is one of the reasons why various Wisdom traditions talk of speaking from the heart - it by-passes the brain. Talk to the organ-grinder, not the monkey. It works too.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: Recovered: Our Orphaned Solar System

Unread postby bboyer » Wed May 07, 2008 5:24 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:<snip>
"Here's another Mad Idea. Maybe the Earth's mental morphogenetic field* as it has evolved through humanity is also far from typical".


You are correct here; it is not typical, it is unique to us because we created it. We are part of creation creating.

This bicameral mind thing, for a kick-off, is a misnomer. It is the brain which is bicameral not the mind. To assign cause to the brain is wrong - it can only do what the mind tells it - hence the internal dialogue. Put another way, the brain is only the organ of the mind; it's the lower, animal, Earthly part. Only ignorance and or laziness lets the brain do the driving. The internal dialogue is between what Plato among others would call the lower mind and the higher mind. This is one of the reasons why various Wisdom traditions talk of speaking from the heart - it by-passes the brain. Talk to the organ-grinder, not the monkey. It works too.

<snip>


Wrt "bicameralness"; as above, so below. And vicee versee. So why the inefficient running dialogue going on at all? Why not just be of single-mindedness without the translation into the chatter of mentally "spoken" dialogue with and between these 2 selves? What real need has the organ-grinder for the antics of his charming little monkey except for the distracting, diversionary entertainment (show biz) for himself and his audience? Nothing wrong with putting on a show as long as one is really aware that it actually is an act. :lol:

To me, speaking from the heart bypasses duality or any fractionated aspect or polarity of mind or beingness.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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