The Cult of the Big Bang

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The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby pln2bz » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:13 pm

There is a documentary airing on cable these days titled "Inside a Cult". It provides an inside look at a cult and its leader. Most interesting is what happens when the cult leader's prophecy for the end of the world does not come to pass. In this case, the date was late October of 2007. Clearly, nothing happened.

It's one of the curious aspects of this that leaders will make prophecies and the prophecies don't materialize. And the followers for the most part stay. Rather than give up their belief to go with reality, they'll somehow shift their view of reality to match their belief.


Clearly, there are in fact differences between cults and scientific theories. But, this particular similarity is striking.
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby Plasmatic » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:38 pm

The common denominator is FAITH.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby pln2bz » Thu May 01, 2008 9:06 am

From http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/ ... llider.php ...

The "father" of an elusive subatomic particle said Monday he is almost sure it will be discovered in the next year in a race between powerful research equipment in the United States and Europe.

British physicist Peter Higgs, who more than 40 years ago postulated the existence of the particle in the makeup of the atom, said his visit to a new accelerator in Geneva over the weekend encouraged him that the so-called Higgs boson will soon be seen.
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby webolife » Thu May 01, 2008 10:38 am

Funny, Plasmatic, how after all that argumentation, we now are both speaking the same language... maybe?
The Cult of Scientism, or JL's "Church of Cosmology", the "scientific consensus", or any particular person's viewpoint on reality, regardless how good a scientist they are... all based as you said: "The common denominator is FAITH."
On the subject of this thread, it doesn't seem to matter how many controverting evidences are found for the Big B. Its adherents will continue to stick to it. Here's my take on why this is so:
1. Occam's Razor is dead. Like Nietzsche's "God is dead" only for post-modern scientists. Nietzsche himself was not saying that God had died, just that modern philosophers had given up on including him in their worldview. Likewise, scientists still "believe" in Occam's Razor, just have stopped using it in their fantasizing, oops, I mean theorizing, about the origin of the universe.
2. The Big B satisfies the fundamental inner need for an "origin" without necessitating a god or designer to start it.
3. Big Bangers can keep getting funding, if they keep spouting claims that ordinary common-sensed folk can't understand and therefore debunk.
4. Everyone likes a good science-fiction story.
EU-ers, watch out, because all of the above may apply also to us.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby junglelord » Thu May 01, 2008 11:36 am

From a former member of the Cult of Cosmology, I would say it goes beyond faith, its almost brainwashing. Be that as it may, it is dogma and not science.
:?

I am so glad to have been shown the light. Plasma Light glowing from the EU. Turn off your brainwashed mind and turn on your gut and the black holes will disappear. Your gut does not lie, your brain can be very washed. (something I needed to do years ago, but there were no other sources back then so I figured my gut must be wrong)
:D

Now when I listen to their "crap" it actually makes me mad.

I think thats the brainwashing coming out.
:twisted:

The History Channel Universe Series is like a Cult of Indoctrination. The way they talk so confident about endless articles of faith and they get angry if you question them....like they are god and we are mear mortals. Certainly they are the Cultapersonality. Michio Kaku gets all hyped when he is talking about the Second Law of Thermodyanmics and Entropy and that the Universe will end in a big freeze, and how dare people question them and their laws dispite their lack of accurate predictions and constant amazment at new discovers. Dude its gone to your head...you could be wrong! I bet you are...yeah me and my gut says your wrong Kaku. I bet the universe will never end in a big freeze, I bet the second law does not apply to the Universe at the grand scale for I do not believe it is a closed system. You know what flies in the face of the second law, is the theory of evolution. If things always have entropy then how does life evolve upwards? Hell how does the universe evolve from your big bang if its governed by Entropy? How do Stars evolve and Galaxies if Entropy is the God of the Universe and its altimate demise? Maybe the Gravity of the Situation you have dug will one day become aware to you.
:evil:

The way he came off as holier then though really peed me off. Arrogent, not scientific, articles of faith, no proof, Cultapersonality, Church of Cosmology Cult leader.

I would love to see Wal Thornhill have a History Channel Series, dig us out of the black hole frozen wasteland of Kaku.
:twisted:
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Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby webolife » Thu May 01, 2008 2:15 pm

Curious what you think, Dean, et.al., about my statement that "Entropy = Centropy"?
I do think that entropy has universal application, but do not see it as merely the "law of decay", or "death" of the universe --- incidentally it's interesting that depending on which Big B'er you talk to, one sees it as a "heat death", and another as a "big freeze", both based on their view of entropy. I also don't see it as "all systems proceeding to chaos from order", but I do see it as a net loss of potential energy in an energy transformation.

The universal structure-producing principles for me are...

CENTROPY including at least these features:
* the unified force field at every scale, the "Big Squeeze"
* the holding force of the universe, [instantaneous] "gravity"
* potential "energy"
* electrostatic force, voltage, nuclear force
* magnetic attraction, orthogonal to the primary or local centropic field vectors
* ENTROPY, the net "squeeze" in every energy transformation
* the reason "matter" has mass
* the reason the big bang is impossible
* the reason macroevolution is impossible
* light, in all its spectral array, as instantaneous force directed to the source, not an emitted wave or particle

balanced with...

KINETIC "ENERGY" including at least these features:
* the [typically angular] momentum of every particle at every scale
* the "centrifugal" vector in any orbital system
* rotation, revolution, periodicity, electron "spin"
* gyroscopic "force"
* the result of Newton's 3rd law of motion with respect to any potential energy drop
* magnetic repulsion, orthogonal to the primary or local centropic field vectors
* the reason "matter" takes up space
* jets, streams, or winds of plasma

These balancing principles are responsible for:
MATTER -- mass and its attendant volume, or volume and its attendant mass, two ways of looking at "fields"
CHARGE
ELECTICAL effects, some of which are instantaneous
MAGNETIC effects, some of which are instantaneous
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby pln2bz » Thu May 01, 2008 2:37 pm

As a footnote to this thread, the actual cult in question appears to be in the news today ...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4765519&page=1
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby Plasmatic » Thu May 01, 2008 3:08 pm

Funny, Plasmatic, how after all that argumentation, we now are both speaking the same language... maybe?
The Cult of Scientism, or JL's "Church of Cosmology", the "scientific consensus", or any particular person's viewpoint on reality, regardless how good a scientist they are... all based as you said: "The common denominator is FAITH."
On the subject of this thread, it doesn't seem to matter how many controverting evidences are found for the Big B. Its adherents will continue to stick to it.


Sorry Web we're still having a communication problem. Those who accept the premises of others without the skill of explcit conceptual awareness and the knowledge of the need to differentiate between evidence and subjectve speculation that is inherently unverifiable and contradictory [which has implicit within ,the efficacy of the INDIVIDUALS ability to percieve and concieve effectualy], are the ones who operate in Faith. Thats the differences between us, which is what weve already discussed. Im sure your statement was tounge in cheek unless the communication barrier between us is broader than I thought.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby danejean » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:57 pm

Absolutely
And every cult leads nowhere.Facts are what they are i/e facts.The most important is the interpretation we have of them.
At that point it is your inside Light which drives you.It is beyond all mental boxes,it is the Universe iteslf.

junglelord wrote:From a former member of the Cult of Cosmology, I would say it goes beyond faith, its almost brainwashing. Be that as it may, it is dogma and not science.
:?

I am so glad to have been shown the light. Plasma Light glowing from the EU. Turn off your brainwashed mind and turn on your gut and the black holes will disappear. Your gut does not lie, your brain can be very washed. (something I needed to do years ago, but there were no other sources back then so I figured my gut must be wrong)
:D

Now when I listen to their "crap" it actually makes me mad.

I think thats the brainwashing coming out.
:twisted:

The History Channel Universe Series is like a Cult of Indoctrination. The way they talk so confident about endless articles of faith and they get angry if you question them....like they are god and we are mear mortals. Certainly they are the Cultapersonality. Michio Kaku gets all hyped when he is talking about the Second Law of Thermodyanmics and Entropy and that the Universe will end in a big freeze, and how dare people question them and their laws dispite their lack of accurate predictions and constant amazment at new discovers. Dude its gone to your head...you could be wrong! I bet you are...yeah me and my gut says your wrong Kaku. I bet the universe will never end in a big freeze, I bet the second law does not apply to the Universe at the grand scale for I do not believe it is a closed system. You know what flies in the face of the second law, is the theory of evolution. If things always have entropy then how does life evolve upwards? Hell how does the universe evolve from your big bang if its governed by Entropy? How do Stars evolve and Galaxies if Entropy is the God of the Universe and its altimate demise? Maybe the Gravity of the Situation you have dug will one day become aware to you.
:evil:

The way he came off as holier then though really peed me off. Arrogent, not scientific, articles of faith, no proof, Cultapersonality, Church of Cosmology Cult leader.

I would love to see Wal Thornhill have a History Channel Series, dig us out of the black hole frozen wasteland of Kaku.
:twisted:
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby altonhare » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:23 pm

There is no room in science for "faith". The recent merging of science with religion (starting about 100 years ago) is a direct result of blithe disregard for applying the scientific method. When people don't apply the scientific method (hypothesis, theory, and conclusion) they are unable to distinguish between invalid theories (self-contradictory fallacies) and valid theories (non self contradictory). With this criteria lost people turn to the most charismatic, famous, rich, etc. person or group of people to listen to. They no longer know how to evaluate and formulate thoughts on their own because they lack any criteria. They are the mercy of anyone who claims to know the criteria.

The EU, as an open minded community without the immense pressures of profit and a century of scientific failure, is in a unique position to break out of this mold. The EU must take recourse in the Scientific Method or it is also in danger of remaining a Theory of Nothing. The first step is to formulate a hypothesis. A hypothesis is one or more physical objects that form the basis for explaining observed phenomena. For instance, Newton hypothesized that light was a discrete billiard ball like particle, a corpuscle. This hypothesis is valid because it is based on a physical object, one that has shape, i.e. it is finite and three dimensional. There has not been a valid physical hypothesis since then.

http://www.youstupidrelativist.com

There is a new valid physical hypothesis, proposed by Bill Gaede. The entire universe is interconnected by a rope/chain structure. This is not a useful conception or an illustration. The theory is that a three dimensional object physically connects everything. The rope/chain is dual-strand, entwined, and anti parallel. It physically justifies all known phenomena of light, in particular rectilinear travel.

Light:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-NB5vg7woM

The H Atom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmE11_E-rdE

Magnetism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evfUTmx0uh8

Gravitation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWeYJg9Oxs

The EU community pursues the true scientific pursuit of physical, causal explanations for observed phenomena; they will embrace a valid physical hypothesis. The EU will be the first scientific community to pay heed to the scientific method and to take recourse in a valid physical hypothesis in a hundred years.
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby webolife » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:08 pm

Well, Plasmatic and Altonhare,
I guess you haven't heard the end of me yet...
To you both anything non-material must be non-existent, therefore, a matter of faith as opposed to science.
I agree that Science is limited by its requirement of "physicality" to describe only those aspects of nature which are, in fact, material. Sorry for that horrendous tautology. Yet both of you err, I believe, in thinking that only that which is "material" is valid in the discussion of scientific ideas. Paradigms have directed the course of scientific discovery since before Aristotle. Paradigms as fundamental assumptions are entirely the objects of faith in the scientific community. Anyone who claims to be in this community, yet does not hold to fundamental assumptions about their science, is lying to themselves. Now Plasmatic has a narrow definiton of Faith which, if I agree to it, would lead me to his same conclusion and altonhare's, that faith has no part in science. But I disagree with Plasmatic's [and altonhare's?] definition and limitation of Faith as being practically synonymous with Religion. One scientist's underlying assumptions [faith] leads her through the evidence, with impeccable logic, to one conclusion, while another scientist's underlying assumptions [faith] leads him to another conclusion, based on the same evidence and sound logic. I know Plasmatic will never agree with me on this, but as a scientist, Earth Science major, math minor, and public school teacher for the past 32 years, this drives my science and [hopefully] keeps my mind open as well, hence my signature line...
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby Plasmatic » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:22 pm

To you both anything non-material must be non-existent, therefore, a matter of faith as opposed to science.



But I disagree with Plasmatic's [and altonhare's?] definition and limitation of Faith as being practically synonymous with Religion.


Where did I claim this? Religion is dependent on faith Not synonymous with it. A religion consist of the particular articles of faith.


Paradigms as fundamental assumptions are entirely the objects of faith in the scientific community. Anyone who claims to be in this community, yet does not hold to fundamental assumptions about their science, is lying to themselves.


Could you clarify your usage of "assumption" you here make it synonymous with faith it seems.. My definition makes this statement invalid. You are basically subscribing to Poppers skepticism of induction .The epistemology i subscribe to does not make omniscience the standard of knowledge. ALL concepts are to be connected to observations. The belief in something without ANY evidene or in spite of evidence is what I call faith. When maintaining an article of faith one replaces causal knowledge with "hope". This gives rise to the the concept of "miracles". This process replaces causal expectations based on observed identity with whimsical hope of miraculous outcomes because the volition identification of facts is not taking place.

The absense of reason[which applies logic and leads to facts of reality] leads to faith and force.


Also Logic as you used it is incorrect. logic is the non contradictory identification of the facts of reality.[ergo MY tag] "impeccable logic" only leads to facts . A false "assumption" cannot lead to the facts of reality nor obey logic as logic rests upon axioms.

ALL concepts should be based on observation. The abandonement of this is exactly why science is in the soup of contradiction it is in.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: The Cult of the Big Bang

Unread postby altonhare » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:44 am

Web:

Before you and I can discuss further we need to get three things clear between us or we are doomed to talk in circles, waste time, and become frustrated with each other. I like you and don't want that.

First question:

Is A A?

My answer: Yes

Second question:

What is the definition of object?

My answer: That which has shape, a border, is finite.

Third question:

What is physics the study of?

My answer: Objects

If you agree with all three then we can certainly talk physics. If you disagree with the second two take it to the appropriate thread. If you disagree with the first one I'll wait until you agree with it to talk more.
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