How A Capacitor Really Works

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junglelord
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How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by junglelord » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:52 am

Want to see how a capacitor really works?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckpQW9sdUg
MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Clearly the Dielectric stress is in the dielectric material, not the copper plates, as is erroneous taught.
Another clear victory of Tesla/Dollard theory of Electrostatic Phenomenon and Dielectric Field Theory.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

seasmith
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by seasmith » Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:11 am

~

Clearly

.

Corpuscles
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Corpuscles » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:58 pm

A simple but profound experiment!

(In my occasional play/amateur experiments with Leydon jars I have never thought to do that :o )

It would be interesting if they had a gaussmeter (or like) to determine any magnetic effect in the dielectric

Having thoroughly re read your ancient APM thread again (prompted by mod posting an unrelated link) it also tends to verify Dave Thompsons claim that electrostatic and electromagnetic are two distinct entities.

Will have to meditate on it more , but there are sure to be some very important implications to all this

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junglelord
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by junglelord » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:17 pm

Well the universe loves me, my son came home for the weekend, I taught him the Eric Dollard stuff, and he made a grand insight!

If Dollard is correct, that the "insulator" is the conductor and the "conductor" is a reflector, then we have it all wrong. I think the MIT experiment proves that. So lets go forward with that concept. If you have a huge discharge you need not only a huge reflector but also a huge conductor. Since under these intense conditions, bare metal wires explode AKA Z Pinch themself out of existance, you can see why the modern Z Pinch is constructed the way it is and why Tesla made note in his lectures of the "need" to immerse huge cables in baths of oil....

The oil not only allows the wire not to explode, it gives the charge somewhere to go...so it is not a insulator, but a conductor of the Dielectric Field of the Aether and it makes sense if you consider and understand at NO TIME does current flow in the middle of a wire/cable, but it exists in the space around the "reflector cable" in the Aether.

Take a look at the news release of the day, how appropo.
The central vacuum chamber of the Z Machine, above, is 10ft in diameter and 20ft deep, surrounded by banks of capacitors - the enormous 'batteries' used to store the charge that fire the machine.
When the wires that are inside the tiny 'target' are vaporised, the tungsten threads are forced to travel inwards at a speed of over 3,000 miles per second, and the result is that enormous sudden release of energy.
The powerful fluctuation in the magnetic field when the machine is discharged generates an electric current in all the metallic objects in the chamber - hence the impressive lightning or 'arcs and sparks' seen here.
The 36 cables feeding the energy pulse into the Z Machine are insulated by chambers containing two million litres of insulating oil and two million litres of deionised water.
While the Z Machine can generate an extraordinary pulse of energy, it only does so for a tiny fraction of a second - the power used is only enough to provide electricity for 100 houses for two minutes, and is supplied by the local electricity company via a wall socket


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive ... z0cuGqkAzn

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive ... plant.html
I agree with Dollard that the Dielectric Field is not understood and has been left behind.

A quick google of Magneto-Dielectric gives a quick understanding that this is a domain of harmonic quantum spin relationships and that it is a real domain that does exists and is the area of metamaterials and Nanotechnology and the next secrect key of Quantum Effects at a Macroscale.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

Orlando
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Orlando » Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:40 pm

OMG, who was it that stated that it crawls on the surface of the skin (conductor) by-passing Vital Organs!!

Wait,???????
oh ya Master Tesla

You think that that atmosphere was the insulator and his body the conducter, that's why he wore them cork shoes
when doing his presentations lighting tubes and bulbs.
The truth hidden in plain site.

Or am I just a retard for mentioning that :?

Peace
Or
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Tell me a Story and it will live in my Heart forever--

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tayga
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by tayga » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:49 am

I just stumbled into this thread and was prompted to look up Eric Dollard. His material raises a host of questions for me and I really will have to do some basic study of electricity again because I think EU might be easier to rationalise if we get away from particle-dependent models. I think trying to incorporate a particle model into the EU throws up relativistic problems i.e. it probably compounds errors and obscures the simplicity.

Just my thoughts, I'm not a physicist but a chemist. However, I'm now more convinced than ever that there is a universe of undiscovered technology in electrostatics.
tayga


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Orlando
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Orlando » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:31 am

Hey JL what do you make of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB-jWfzkz_E

He shows some properties of Capacitors that i wanted your insight on.

Peace
Or
Teach me a fact and I'll learn; Tell me the truth and I'll Believe;
Tell me a Story and it will live in my Heart forever--

Native American Proverb

Corpuscles
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Corpuscles » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:48 am

junglelord wrote:Want to see how a capacitor really works?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckpQW9sdUg
MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Clearly the Dielectric stress is in the dielectric material, not the copper plates, as is erroneous taught.
Another clear victory of Tesla/Dollard theory of Electrostatic Phenomenon and Dielectric Field Theory.

Hey JL

Have you ever noticed or read Benjamin Franklins original letters?

Several can be found here
http://history-world.org/benjamin_frank ... nts_wi.htm

Check this out:
Watson's paper is dated January 21, 1748; Franklin's July 11, 1747,

several months prior. Shortly after Franklin, from his principles of the plus

and minus state, explained in a satisfactory manner the phenomena of the

Leyden vial, first observed by Mr. Cuneus, or by Professor Muschenbroeck, of

Leyden, which had much perplexed philosophers. He showed clearly that when

charged the bottle contained no more electricity than before, but that as much

was taken from one side as was thrown on the other; and that to discharge it

nothing was necessary but to produce a communication between the two sides, by

which the equilibrium might be restored, and that then no sign of electricity

would remain. He afterward demonstrated by experiments that the electricity

did not reside in the coating, as had been supposed, but in the pores of the

glass itself.
After a vial was charged he removed the coating, and found that

upon applying a new coating the shock might still be received
.
In the year

1749 he first suggested his idea of explaining the phenomena of thunder-gusts

and of the aurora borealis upon electrical principles. He points out many

particulars in which lightning and electricity agree, and he adduces many

facts, and reasonings from facts, in support of his positions.
Wow. He knew it BACK then!

Fascinating. The insulator ! :o

Sure he was dealing with electrostatic charges!
But, has the implications perhaps also, that as is widely known or suggested "electricity" is not in the wire.... but merely the catalyst for dielectric to cause aetheral stresses producing e/m waves!?

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junglelord
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by junglelord » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:19 am

Great find and I am not surprised that Ben Franklin knew what I learned...we are all being lied to or taught ignorant theories as fact.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

Drethon
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Drethon » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:38 am

Corpuscles wrote:
junglelord wrote:Want to see how a capacitor really works?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ckpQW9sdUg
MIT Physics Demo -- Dissectible Capacitor

Clearly the Dielectric stress is in the dielectric material, not the copper plates, as is erroneous taught.
Another clear victory of Tesla/Dollard theory of Electrostatic Phenomenon and Dielectric Field Theory.

Hey JL

Have you ever noticed or read Benjamin Franklins original letters?

Several can be found here
http://history-world.org/benjamin_frank ... nts_wi.htm

Check this out:
Watson's paper is dated January 21, 1748; Franklin's July 11, 1747,

several months prior. Shortly after Franklin, from his principles of the plus

and minus state, explained in a satisfactory manner the phenomena of the

Leyden vial, first observed by Mr. Cuneus, or by Professor Muschenbroeck, of

Leyden, which had much perplexed philosophers. He showed clearly that when

charged the bottle contained no more electricity than before, but that as much

was taken from one side as was thrown on the other; and that to discharge it

nothing was necessary but to produce a communication between the two sides, by

which the equilibrium might be restored, and that then no sign of electricity

would remain. He afterward demonstrated by experiments that the electricity

did not reside in the coating, as had been supposed, but in the pores of the

glass itself.
After a vial was charged he removed the coating, and found that

upon applying a new coating the shock might still be received
.
In the year

1749 he first suggested his idea of explaining the phenomena of thunder-gusts

and of the aurora borealis upon electrical principles. He points out many

particulars in which lightning and electricity agree, and he adduces many

facts, and reasonings from facts, in support of his positions.
Wow. He knew it BACK then!

Fascinating. The insulator ! :o

Sure he was dealing with electrostatic charges!
But, has the implications perhaps also, that as is widely known or suggested "electricity" is not in the wire.... but merely the catalyst for dielectric to cause aetheral stresses producing e/m waves!?
Sounds not too different from the idea of creating LichtenBerg figures. The insulator stores the charge until a conductor can discharge it...

jacmac
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by jacmac » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:03 am

I saw the MIT video and was impressed, then I saw this explanation below at this site.

http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html

"Do you believe that the energy in a capacitor is trapped permanently in the dielectric? Many people do. Their belief is caused by a famously misleading experiment called "Dissectable Leyden Jar." It's an experiment which involves high voltage and corona discharge. The effect it purports to prove does not occur in capacitors at lower voltages.
First charge up a Leyden jar using a Wimshurst Machine (or other source of high voltage.) Now, carefully remove the inner metal from the jar. Now remove the outer metal. Discharge everything, then hand the parts around the classroom. Next, put the parts together again, connect the two metal cylinders, and BANG!, there is a loud discharge.

Doesn't this prove that the energy in a capacitor is stored in the dielectric? No.

Whenever you take apart a Leyden jar or other high voltage capacitor, there is a corona effect which makes very strange things occur. When you electrify a Leyden jar, and then you pull the inner metal cylinder out of the jar, the capacitance value drops, and this makes the potential difference skyrocket to enormous levels. The potential tries to become huge but it cannot, because instead it creates corona along the metal edges, and and it leaks the excess charge into the air. This corona allows the opposite electrical charges to "paint" themselves onto both sides of the dielectric "jar" surface. So, if you pull a leyden jar apart, the sharp edges of the metal plates sweep along and transfer a large percentage of the separated charges from the metal plates to the glass surfaces. The energy is still there! It's still stored as a field in the dielectric, but those separated charges are not on the mental plates anymore. Instead they are now TRAPPED ON THE GLASS SURFACE! Strange idea, huh? A capacitor with no plates, just a dielectric.

Now reassemble the Leyden jar: momentarily touch each metal plate to ground, and put it back together again. You'll find that it's still strongly electrified! The trapped charges on the glass surface can still induce equal charges on the adjacent metal plates. Touch the two terminals with your fingers and BOOM!, the momentary current in your muscles will throw you across the room.

This strange effect leads many people to claim that the energy in a capacitor is permanently trapped in the dielectric, and that it is not stored in the electric field. This is wrong.

In order to properly perform the take-apart capacitor experiment, you must execute the entire demonstration inside a big tank full of oil. This prevents the corona discharges from spewing charges from the edges of the plate onto the dielectric. "


So now I don't know??? What about this metal edge transfer???

Jack

Corpuscles
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Corpuscles » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:38 pm

Jack

Good find. I really enjoy Bill Beatys stuff.... BUT a few comments

Bill's "oil bath" hypothesis (counter "proof") IMHO..... is completely wrong or at least redundant.

In doing such, he (if he ever did do it?) is destroying the very nature of a capacitor. The oil is more (or prhaps equal) dielelctric than the glass or chosen container... it would in that case ....NOW, no longer be a capacitor!

The "corona" IS the electricity. It is always present ...external to the conductor...however in the primative Leydon jar (FUN to play with) that field is channeled /transferred to the glass/dielectric as it is .....the closest preferred medium for the aetheric flow .

Consider this: THE capactitor will store MORE electricity (without exceeding the expolosive limit) when the thinner the dielectric separating the plates! Why?

I suggest that given only one side of a Leydon jar is subject to charge via the metalic media that offers the initial resistance to create the tension and field flow we call "electricity" or in this case "electrostatic charge".
IT CANNOT ..NEVER...FLOW INSIDE the conductor.... it (field ) hits the other non charged external metalic coating and is restrained and rebounded (contained ) in into the dielectic

Why? When MUCH too high a charge or voltage is applied to a Leydon jar does the dielectric shatter or fail FIRST????
Why? doesn't the so called "conductor" (thin foil in my experiments) FAIL or adversely react FIRST? That is what we would expect if the electricity is in the conductor.

IT's dielectric medium is closest in nature to, and has more aether.Conductive metals are molecular lattices which provide the resistance to create aetheric tension, which induces electricity. Electricity prefers a pure vacuum, next dielectric then least of all conductive metals.. but that conductive resistance is the only way we can exert pressure/tension on the equilibrium to either create or cause directional flow of "electricity"

The process Bill describes is what happens naturally inside a capacitor! You don't have to take it apart to achieve that by his mysterious "build up to infinity" of potential.

There is NO residual charge left on the connected removed conductive plates...Why not?

OK I have ranted on (don't worry someone with a rote degree will shoot me down)....sorry :oops:

Please ,if interested ,google up what you can about.... Eric Dollard.... both he a Tesla were certain the "electricity" does not flow within the conductor but external (from skin "Metal edges") outwards . Somewhere I have found but cannot at this time seen Dollard explain this clearly by experiment. ;)

Drethon
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Drethon » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:40 am

One thing my father pointed out to me (he is an electrical engineer, I'm just a computer engineer) is there are different type of capacitors as well. With static electricity, electrons can be stored in an insulator. On the other hand with non-static electricity the plates conductors themselve do hold the opposing charges.

jacmac
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by jacmac » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:21 am

I was wondering about a way to demonstrate what is really going on, because I don't know.

Is the dielectric field that holds the charge occupying the same space as the dielectric or has the dielectric material itself been changed to hold the charge???

Theoretical experiment:

A capacitor has two conductor plates and a glass dielectric. Charge the capacitor. Slowly move the plates apart far enough to get out of the "corona" range. Then remove the glass. Return the plates to the original position. Is the "charge" still in the two plates or did it leave with the glass???

Any thoughts.

Is "static " electricity different after it is collected or just collected in a different manner??

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Solar
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Re: How A Capacitor Really Works

Unread post by Solar » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:54 pm

CAPACITANCE
The phenomena of capacitance is a type of electrical energy storage in the form of a field in an enclosed space. This space is typically bounded by two parallel metallic plates or two metallic foils on an intervening insulator or dielectric. A nearly infinite variety of more complex structures can exhibit capacity, as long as a difference in electric potential exists between various areas of the structure...

CAPACITANCE INADEQUATELY EXPLAINED
The perception of capacitance as used today is wholly inadequate for the proper understanding of this effect. Steinmetz mentions this in his introductory book Electric Discharges, Waves and Impulses. To quote, "Unfortunately, to large extent in dealing with dielectric fields the prehistoric conception of the electrostatic charge (electron) on the conductor still exists, and by its use destroys the analogy between the two components of the electric field, the magnetic and the dielectric, and makes the consideration of dielectric fields unnecessarily complicated."

LINES OF FORCE AS REPRESENTATION OF DIELECTRICITY
Steinmetz continues, "There is obviously no more sense in thinking of the capacity current as current which charges the conductor with a quantity of electricity, than there is of speaking of the inductance voltage as charging the conductor with a quantity of magnetism. But the latter conception, together with the notion of a quantity of magnetism, etc., has vanished since Faraday's representation of the magnetic field by lines of force."

DIELECTRIC ENERGY STORAGE SPATIALLY DIFFERENT THAN MAGNETIC ENERGY STORAGE
Unlike magnetism the energy is forced or compressed inwards rather than outwards. Dielectric lines of force push inward into internal space and along axis, rather than pushed outward broadside to axis as in the magnetic field. Because the lines are mutually repellent certain amounts of broadside or transverse motion can be expected but the phenomena is basically longitudinal. This gives rise to an interesting paradox that will be noticed with capacity. This is that the smaller the space bounded by the conducting structure the more energy that can be stored. This is the exact opposite of magnetism...

ANOTHER FORM OF ENERGY APPEARS
Through the rapid discharge of inductance a new force field appears that reduces the rate of inductive EMF formation. This field is also represented by lines of force but these are of a different nature than those of magnetism. These lines of force are not a manifestation of current flow but of an electric compression or tension. This tension is termed voltage or potential difference.- BORDERLAND SCIENCES RESEARCH FOUNDATION
So a longitudinally 'inbound electric compression or tension' as relates the dielectric substance. Similar to what Franklin noted with "in the pores of the glass itself" - but "pores" are holes that admit passage of something.

Farady on Dielectric:
Dielectric as bearer of the electric field

If the plate A in Fig. 446 is loaded to a given potential V, while only air separates it from B, it accepts a certain amount of electricity. If you then fill the space between it and B with paraffin or glass or any other insulating substance, it will accept a larger amount of electricity than before, in order to attain the same potential. These observations guided Faraday away from action at a distance of electric forces to new views of the nature of induction.

He started from his insight that a magnetized bar, which is broken into two pieces, always yields two new magnets, each with a North pole and a South pole (Fig. 448). You can conceive that the entire magnet NS consist of small magnets ns, whence the magnetisation of a piece of iron is eventually reduced to its single molecules. Faraday then assumed that due to the electrification of the conductor there arises in the bounding insulator- he calls it dielectric - an electric state, because there form similarly in the molecules of the insulator positive and negative poles, which on their part act on the adjoining conductor (Fig. 449).

Let A be a positively, B a negatively charged conductor and ab a row of molecules of the insulator between A and B. Once the poles in the molecules have formed - Faraday calls this state dielectric polarization - pairs of neighbouring molecules in the same row turn towards each other opposite poles and attract each other and the ends a and b attract A and B. Thus, as a result of its polarization, the rows of molecules ab form of a band, which tends to contract and bring the electrified bodies A and B closer together; every other row of molecules between A and B does the same. Hence there exists a tendency to contract in the direction AB.

The state of tension, into which an insulator enters, is a main property of the electric field. The lines, along which the polarized molecules of the insulator contract each other are nothing else but the lines of force, along which a freely movable, charged molecule moves in an electrical field. As a rule, these lines of force are not straight, but more or less curved. Moreover, it is of no consequence whether the space between the two conductors is occupied by air or another (solid, fluid or gaseous) insulator. All these ideas took Faraday away from the concept of direct action of electric forces at a distance; he replaced this concept by a theory, according to which action of a force is transferred by dielectric polarization of the intermediate medium. He employed the words:

"Here the most important among the deductions from the concept that induction is a molecular process is the suspected action along curved lines, for if this could be uniquely established, I cannot see how the old theory of sole action along straight lines at a distance could be maintained or how the conclusion that ordinary induction is an action between adjacent particles can be rejected." Moreover, he wrote: "One can conceive by means of lines of force the external force, which starts from an electric body and reaches into the distance. The lines or the forces, which they represent, remain conserved as long as they are inside of or penetrate an insulating medium. They propagate until they encounter a conducting substance, on which they excite an equally large state, which is opposite to that of their source and of equivalent degree, and in this way their insulation finds a border or they continue, if no such body is present."

Faraday proved over and over again by new facts: During polarization, the dielectric is decisive, the conductor has only the role of the border of the dilelectric. Inside the dielectric, the positive charge of one molecule neutralizes the negative charge of its neighbour on the line of force. Only when the dielectric reaches a conductor, the charge is detected - the charge of the conductor. In a line of force, for example, in the row of molecules ab (Fig. 449), the starting point on the conductor A and its end point on the conductor B signify charges, and indeed corresponding points.

Modern ideas of the nature of dielectric polarization

Today we view (on the basis of substantially extended knowledge of electric processes) electricity as something corpular; we ascribe to it atomic structure and assume existence of positive and negative elementary particles of a definite size. According to this concept, the positive (negative) charge of the conductor A (B) (Fig. 449) is identical to a layer of positive (negative) elementary particles on its surface . The end points of the lines of force, linking opposite charges, carry accordingly on the one hand positive and on the other hand negative particles. Elementary particles can be considered to be two elements - we denote them by (-) and (+) - with which other elements can bond (some with (+) , others with (-) , for example, the compounds H(+) and K(+) - a hydrogen ion and a potassium ion -, the compounds Cl(-) - a chlorine ion -and write them, in order to distinguish them from uncharged atoms H+,Cl-. etc.), but which can also bond with each other into (+)(-) - a neutral particle.

According to the view of the structure of matter in 1935, its atoms consist of positive and negative elementary particles; an atom is not charged, if the sum of the positive elementary charges equals the sum of the negative ones. However, if the particles are separated from each other, as Fig. 449 indicates (dipole), then there occurs inside the dielectric that state of tension, which we have described above, and on the bounding layer forms a free charge.
(...)
Dielectric constant

A dielectric intermediates by its polarization interaction between two charged conductors. Interpreted according to Faraday, the electric field infiltrates the dielectric, which is internally polarized and charged on its boundaries. The thinner the layer of the dielectric, the closer are the charges interlinked and the smaller is their interaction wit the outside. For example, if you rub glass and silk together and leave them in contact with each other, they do not at all affect an electroscope; only after they are separated, each of them acts on the electroscope and the more strongly, the further away it is from the oppositely charged body.- K2 Electricity
So, Faraday proposes polarization of the molecular lattice of the dielectric substance because it is initially overall "neutral". But then he says that they "... remain conserved as long as they are inside of or penetrate an insulating medium. They propagate until they encounter a conducting substance" ... "in this way their insulation finds a border or they continue, if no such body is present."

The 'continuation' is the interesting part. Separating the silk from the glass is when the electric field affects the electroscope. The further apart the more-so it does so. This could be attributed to the polarization of the air molecules between the silk and the glass. But those air molecules aren't static. No matter how hard the wind blows the "field" stays. Since "space" is not 'empty' it would seem that something would always be available to be 'polarized' and subsequently recognized as a "field" i.e. the polarized region around an object.

If the aether is 'fluid' does the 'polarization' happen on the fly as it passes?
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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