Electric Saturn

[seanoz]

The most notable 'mystery' mentioned was that they have determined that Phoebe and the ring are in orbiting Saturn in the opposite direction to all the other moons and rings.

Interestingly, Phoebe and its associated dust ring travel in the opposite direction of Saturn's other rings and satellites.

Any comments to this?

[FS3]

Regarding that recent "finding" at Saturn I would like to draw your attention aon a finding by solar from his Terrella thread. This pic really looks like the real one out "there", or?

http://lpg.obs.ujf-grenoble.fr/homepage ... -00066.jpg


FS3

[redeye]

Exciting stuff. Does this new ring (and Pheobe) definitely have a retrograde orbit, or is it just rotating much slower than Saturn. Calculating Saturn's rotational speed is problematic as it is a Gas giant and different regions of the planet are seen to rotate at different speeds depending on lattitude:

The visible features on Saturn rotate at different rates depending on latitude, and multiple rotation periods have been assigned to various regions (as in Jupiter's case): System I has a period of 10 h 14 min 00 s (844.3°/d) and encompasses the Equatorial Zone, which extends from the northern edge of the South Equatorial Belt to the southern edge of the North Equatorial Belt. All other Saturnian latitudes have been assigned a rotation period of 10 h 39 min 24 s (810.76°/d), which is System II. System III, based on radio emissions from the planet in the period of the Voyager flybys, has a period of 10 h 39 min 22.4 s (810.8°/d); because it is very close to System II, it has largely superseded it.

However, a precise value for the rotation period of the interior remains elusive. While approaching Saturn in 2004, the Cassini spacecraft found that the radio rotation period of Saturn had increased appreciably, to approximately 10 h 45 m 45 s (± 36 s).[36] The cause of the change is unknown—it was thought to be due to a movement of the radio source to a different latitude inside Saturn, with a different rotational period, rather than because of a change in Saturn's rotation.

Later, in March 2007, it was found that the rotation of the radio emissions did not trace the rotation of the planet, but rather is produced by convection of the plasma disc, which is dependent also on other factors besides the planet's rotation. It was reported that the variance in measured rotation periods may be caused by geyser activity on Saturn's moon Enceladus. The water vapor emitted into Saturn's orbit by this activity becomes charged and "weighs down" Saturn's magnetic field, slowing its rotation slightly relative to the rotation of the planet itself. At the time it was stated that there is no currently known method of determining the rotation rate of Saturn's core.[37][38][39]

The latest estimate of Saturn's rotation based on a compilation of various measurements from the Cassini, Voyager and Pioneer probes was reported in September 2007 is 10 hours, 32 minutes, 35 seconds.

From Wiki

I've stated in the past that the rings of Saturn appear to rotate at radically different speeds and without a proper frame of reference they can appear counter rotational:

Daphnis in the Keeler gap

Cheers!

[StevenO]

In an article about how to calculate the correct Roche limit based on the knowledge of his Unified Field, Miles Mathis calculates how close Jupiter and Saturn must have encountered to create their resonance.

The introduction:

A RECALCULATION OF THE ROCHE LIMIT
by Miles Mathis


Abstract: I will show that the current Roche limit is a myth. It is achieved by faulty postulates as well as faulty math. I will then calculate a new Roche limit, defined as that distance at which the charge field balances the gravity field. This will give us a useful equation to explain how bodies avoid collision. I will apply it to the great inequality between Jupiter and Saturn, showing how they create the resonance and showing the distance at which they passed millions of years ago.

In my first paper on tides, I showed that current and historical tidal math is wrong from top to bottom. It relies on a differential field that doesn't exist. It fudges solar and lunar equations to match data. And it predicts a barycenter that cannot exist. If the barycenter existed, the tide from orbiting the barycenter would swamp all other known effects, dooming the current math.

In subsequent tidal papers, I showed that tides must be caused by the unified field, not the gravity field. And, although the unified field includes the gravity field, it is the E/M part of the unified field that actually causes tides. That is, gravity has absolutely nothing to do with either tides or the Roche limit. The only reason that tides have been given to gravity is that the unified field has been represented by Newton's gravity equation up to now. Because Newton's equation defined orbits and perturbations, it was also thought to define tides. I have shown that Newton's equation does define tides, but only because it has always included the E/M field.

I have not just offered this as a bald theory, I have provided the foundational math for it. I have pulled apart Newton's equation, showing precisely how it contains both fields and how to segregate them mathematically. I have shown what G is, as a scaling constant. Furthermore, I have already used my new equations to calculate the foundational E/M fields or charge fields of the Earth and Moon. Beyond that, I have confirmed those new numbers in other papers, tying those new fields to other theory and math. To be specific, I have shown that the .1% error between the Bohr magneton and the magnetic moment of the electron is caused by the charge field of the Earth. I have also shown that the atmosphere expresses about .1% of its weight, due to a simple semi-confinement equation in the curved field, offsetting the charge field. In other words, I have confirmed my numbers in separate problems, with independent math.

It is clear that my correction to tidal math must doom the current math for the Roche limit. Since tides aren't caused by gravity, all the historical math must be false. However, using the unified field that has always been contained in Newton's equations, we may easily find a new Roche limit. Yes, there is a unified field analogue to the Roche limit. It is the limit where the charge field repulsion of the two bodies matches the gravitational pseudo-attraction, keeping the orbiting body from a closer approach.

In my recent paper on Laplace, I showed that this new Roche limit must play a part in the resonance between Jupiter and Saturn. Although Laplace's equations are nearly correct as a heuristic model, they contain no mechanics. In other words, Laplace never told us why the two planets began moving apart in the first place. Using gravity alone, any approach would be fatal. Gravity increases with decreasing distance, so gravity cannot explain a resonance. Gravity would guarantee a collision. The mechanical reason that Jupiter and Saturn began drifting apart in the distant past was due to this Roche approach of the two planets. A near approach caused a sharp increase in the E/M part of the unified field, bouncing the planets apart. I will do the math below.


Full article can be found here: The Roche Limit

He concludes with the Saturn-Jupiter encounter:

Now let us look at a near approach of Jupiter and Saturn, using these new equations. How close did the two great planets come millions of years ago, in order to create a resonance? We can now find out.

To use my new equation, we have to first calculate new accelerations for Jupiter and Saturn, based only on their radii. We do that with a proportionality with the Earth.

9.81/RE = x/RJ = y/RS
x = 110.7
y = 92.7

R = √{G2M/[2A + 2a]}
R = 4558km

Saturn must have come closer than that to Jupiter, in order to be bounced away. That was a very close call, and a much closer pass or a hit might have upset or destroyed the entire Solar System. Our entire history may have depended on that near pass. And in millions of years, when the resonant cycle returns to that near pass, the Solar System will once again hang on the outcome.

This means that the rings and satellite systems of Jupiter and Saturn must have re-formed since that close pass. If they pre-existed it, they must have been greatly upset by the pass, and many collisions must have taken place. It is more likely, however, that the close pass caused the rings, and that the rings and many small, fractured satellites are clear evidence of this near-collision.

Any comments on this from the catastrophic community? Could older civilizations have witnessed this encounter that should have given plenty of electric fireworks? Would all resonances in the solar system be caused by such close encounters that are also the cause of electrical scarring?

[Lloyd]

* The Roche limit is meant to indicate how closely two bodies could get without destroying the smaller one, although you say he redefines it as how close they can get before bouncing apart. I imagine his new definition and calculation of the Roche limit for Jupiter or Saturn may well be correct, but what evidence did he mention for the conclusion that the two planets actually did hit the Roche limit and then bounced off of each other? I think I've heard Cardona say that Saturn and Jupiter did have a battle for an extended period of time, but I don't recall him speculating how close they may have approached each other.
* After reading a little I see Mathis says something about the present resonance [whatever that means] between Jupiter and Saturn being due to a near collision in the distant past. He thinks that the two planets will have another near collision in the distant future, but I don't think EU theory would agree, nor do I so far. He certainly seems right on some points, including the conclusion that the present rings and satellite arrangements of the planets must have reformed after the close encounter. Cardona has said this too.

[moses]

Where is the plasma physics in Miles ? Jupiter and Saturn would electrically interact when their double layers touch. Charge would flow between the planets and this would change his Roche limit. But the charge flow dominates in the interaction and renders the Roche limit insignificant.
Mo

[jjohnson]

Mo,
I agree that charge would be transferred, likely violently, if there were differences of voltage between the two planets or if there were differences of charge stored in their separate double layers or sheaths. We have no evidence of this being the case so far as I know (although I usually don't get into the planetary stuff very much, to be honest about it).

The thing about Miles's Unified Field is that it is a push-pull duality, with the E/M field "expanding inside the inverse square field expansion of the gravity field". In short, the E/M field changes more quickly with distance than gravity itself, which works like a bump-'em car at the carnival. Get too close and the E/M field starts pushing a LOT harder than the gravity attraction, but as it pushes away it falls off or "relaxes" a lot quicker, too. This either sets up a more stable relationship, or one with a resonant relationship that keeps the partners out of trouble. In theory, anyway.

What theory doesn't get into is how a charge increase created by a sudden arrival of charge from the planet at the higher voltage potential, or from its supercharged sheath, is mediated by the receiver. Since density and charge are proportional (the particles radiate those elementary b-photons), does the receiver's density go up? It has to, since the gravity is the same because the radius hasn't changed. Does the other planets density go down at the same time, but not its radius, since it keeps the same gravity? Seems a little confusing, but you know, rocks in the box upstairs...

Did anyone notice that Miles's computed equipotential radius looks a lot like Earth's radius, in terms of scale? I'm thinking radius of Jupiter here which is 71500km, with Saturn's about 60000km. Is his figure horizon to horizon or planetary center to center? Doesn't that raise a flag? Am I inherently too dang skeptical when I can see the math?

[nick c]

Several of planetary catastrophism theorists entertain the possibility of an encounter between Saturn and Jupiter. There seems to be some mythological basis for that hypothesis, ie the overthrow and banishment of Kronos by Zeus etc. That encounter may have been the reason for the disruption of the Saturnian system after it entered the solar system.
That being said, Mathis' writing is interesting.
A couple of preliminary points:

I---Mathis accepts that planets are charged bodies

II----However, he seems to be basically a uniformitarian, though he may (or may not?) be receptive to catastrophic theories

III----He does not seem to take into consideration the role of charged bodies moving through plasma. This would certainly throw a monkey wrench on "mechanical" calculations. That is, the EU proposition explains that when planets encounter each others plasmaspheres, they in effect "see" each other, causing exchanges of electrical discharges between the participating bodies. The interaction between the two would then, for the period of time that their plasmaspheres are in contact, be totally governed by electrical forces.

IV----This (using the plasmasphere as the boundary for the planet, as opposed to only the visible sphere) also increases the probabilities of an encounter between objects. The plasmaspheres of the gas giant planets are enormous, though presently in dark mode. Again, Mathis ignores the plasmasphere factor.

V-----His analysis indicates that the conventional ideas of the Roche limit are invalid. Perhaps these ideas could have an application to some EU concepts, at the very least if a mainstream skeptic uses the Roche limit as proof that the EU is in violation of physical "laws."
1) of the birth of celestial bodies by fissioning of the parent body.
2) Talbott's polar configuration which might possibly (but not necessarily)
involve planets in violation of the Roche Limit


Very interesting, but number III is bothersome.

Nick

[mharratsc]

Applause, Nick- I've been trying to think of an eloquent way to say essentially the same thing you have regarding the stuff that people have been posting from Mr. Mathis, and you pretty much nailed it!

I guess I can say that I like how Mr. Mathis thinks, and I like where he's trying to go with his arguments and I think it's almost profound how he's managed to state his convictions mathematically so far... I just think that he's missing much of the picture regarding the physics behind plasma cosmology. Not only do I feel that skews some of the results he's arriving at, but I almost wish I could talk to him and say "Pssst! Hey, bud! You shouldn't go off about the Electric Universe side of things until you've done just a little bit more reading, if you get my drift!" :\


Mike H.

[StefanR]

During this period, sunlight hits the rings edge-on and shines directly over the equator. The levitating icy particle clouds, which are known as "spokes" and are as wide as 10,000 kilometers (6,000 miles), appear particularly dramatic because of the unique lighting geometry of the equinox period.

The particles that make up spokes levitate above the ring plane when they acquire an electrostatic charge, the way static electricity on Earth can raise the hair on your arms. The spoke particles appear to acquire more charge during dim conditions and, during equinox, the bulk of the rings are in shadow. That angle of light also brightens features that stick out of the ring plane.

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/photos/image ... ageId=3735
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/cassini ... e20091113/

[junglelord]

Video: Saturn’s Spectacular Aurora in Action

How can you not love Cassini? The latest treat NASA’s spacecraft has provided us is the first ever movie of Saturn’s incredible aruroras.

The high-resolution video was assembled from 472 still images, spaced over 81 hours in October, that show the phenomenon in three dimensions. The lights can be seen as a rippling, vertical sheet up to 750 miles high above Saturn’s northern hemisphere.

“The auroras have put on a dazzling show, shape-shifting rapidly and exposing curtains that we suspected were there, but hadn’t seen on Saturn before,” Cal Tech scientist Andrew Ingersoll, a member of the Cassini imaging team that processed the new video, said in a press release. “Seeing these things on another planet helps us understand them a little better when we see them on Earth.”

NASA’s Cassini spacecraft has returned many truly amazing images of Titan, Saturn and Enceladus, but the aurora video is one of the more spectacular views yet seen of another planet.

Each image has a 2 to 3 minute exposure time, and together they reveal that Saturn’s auroras are rapidly changing, as on Earth. But because of Saturn’s lighter, primarily hydrogen atmosphere, the lights reach much higher than in Earth’s heavier oxygen and nitrogen atmosphere.

Though Cassini has spied the alien auroras in ultraviolet and infrared light before, this time the phenomenon was captured in the visible spectrum. The imaging team added false color to the black and white images to highlight the aurora. Scientists are still trying to figure out what color the lights really are.

Video: NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/ ... in-action/

[StefanR]

The new images of the hexagon, whose shape is the path of a jet stream flowing around the north pole, reveal concentric circles, curlicues, walls and streamers not seen in previous images.
Much to the delight and bafflement of Cassini scientists, the location and shape of the hexagon in the latest images match up with what they saw in the Voyager pictures.
"The longevity of the hexagon makes this something special, given that weather on Earth lasts on the order of weeks," said Kunio Sayanagi, a Cassini imaging team associate at the California Institute of Technology. "It's a mystery on par with the strange weather conditions that give rise to the long-lived Great Red Spot of Jupiter."
But the long darkness of Saturnian winter hid the hexagon from Cassini's visible-light cameras for years. Infrared instruments, however, were able to obtain images by using heat patterns. Those images showed the hexagon is nearly stationary and extends deep into the atmosphere. They also discovered a hotspot and cyclone in the same region.Scientists are still trying to figure out what causes the hexagon, where it gets and expels its energy and how it has stayed so organized for so long. They plan to search the new images for clues, taking an especially close look at the newly identified waves that radiate from the corners of the hexagon -- where the jet takes its hardest turns -- and the multi-walled structure that extends to the top of Saturn's cloud layer in each of the hexagon's six sides. Scientists are also particularly intrigued by a large dark spot that appeared in a different position in a previous infrared image from Cassini. In the latest images, the spot appears in the 2 o'clock position.
"Now that we can see undulations and circular features instead of blobs in the hexagon, we can start trying to solve some of the unanswered questions about one of the most bizarre things we've ever seen in the solar system," Baines said.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2009-187&cid=advisory_2009-187&msource=18709&tr=y&auid=5687592

[kmerrell]

What's not to love about the Cassini spacecraft sending back images of the hexagonal jet stream circling Saturn's northern pole? The hexagonal wonder was discovered in the early 1980s by the Voyager spacecraft. That it is still in place thirty years later warms the hearts of the folks studying it.

The hexagon circles Saturn at 77 degrees north and is wider than two Earths. Nearly everything about the weather pattern is baffling. First, it’s unclear what causes the hexagon. Second, it’s bizarre that the jet stream would make such sharp turns. Earth’s atmospheric movements rarely display such geometric rigor.

Imagine the baffled howls of disbelief when they discover that the hexagon is one of the EU's signature patterns!

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/ ... n-hexagon/

[RayTomes]

The Harmonics Theory says that non-linear systems will preferentially generate certain harmonics as waves. Jupiter has a much more spectacular set than Saturn even. See my blog article and video:

http://ray.tomes.biz/b2/index.php/a/2007/06/28/p149

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtBxAV2Ffuk

[mharratsc]

Don't forget that there are hexagonal craters all over the solar system. Wal Thornhill explains it quite simply that Birkeland currents preferentially show a hexagonal shape while rotating against a surface... be that surface solid or gaseous.


Mike H.