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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Books, journal articles, web pages, and news reports that can help to clarify the history and promise of the Electric Universe hypothesis.

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Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby bboyer » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:59 am

There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. Maitri Upanishad
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby Plasmatic » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:12 am

"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby Tina » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:05 pm

Here's three logical fallacies I have made up:

Argumentum ad Stupido (Your Stupid :roll:) If you're not an expert in this field you don't know anything.

Argumentum ad Arroganto (I'm superior :twisted: ) I'm an expert so I'm right.

Argumentum ad Incredulo (Unbelievable :o ) I can't believe this so it must be false.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby folaht » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:56 am

Looking at http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm I would like to add Argument from fallacy:

Just because you can list one or more arguments are fallacious doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong,
as I can reverse their appeal to ignorance and therefor conclude that both are unsure, not false and true as nobeliefs.com wants to believe (oh, the irony).

Apparently, to them one unseen supernatural entity is way out of the line, but a quadrillion unseen natural extraterrestial species, possibly capable of anything BUT creating our universe are perfectly okay to them, unless one of them looks like a unicorn, a gnome, or the flying spaghetti monster.
It seems like they have completely forgotten that when there is an one intelligent extraterrestial in just our galaxy alone, chances are quite large that intelligent flying spagetthi monsters do as well.
I will put a wager on it that due to a slippery slope of overreacting against beliefs in a supernatural omniscient omnipotent being, these alien flying spagetthi monsters will quickly be worshipped like Dogar and Kazon.

I also fail to how see the slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy.
The problem I see with the slippery slope fallacy is when the slippery slope really is a slippery slope.
When a government really wants control how we die, they will not introduce this law immediately but slippery slopes towards their goal. So I would rather see the slippery slope argument as a weak argument if you only have one example, but not as a fallacy.

If Johnny has bought bullets yesterday, it doesn't mean he's about to kill the president.
But when Johnny has bought bullets and we find a sniper rifle in his bedroom, has talked over the phone with friends about how he found of good place to take pictures of the clown, is associated with a rebel group whose hero is "Osama bin Laden", talks often about martyrdom and glorifies it, has pictures of Osama bin Laden on the wall and of Barack between crosshairs, has city maps with a drawn route of Obama's car when he's going to a conference in Phoenix next week, plans on how to penetrate the bulletproof windows etcetera etcetera, does that still mean Johnny does not want to kill the president?
Since 1 % 1, 1 * 1 and 1 - 1 do not add up, we must conclude that 1 + 1 is 3.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby Tina » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:54 am

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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby StevenO » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:43 pm

Logic fallacies should be avoided by keeping the archetypical knot (the Borromean rings) into mind:
Image
Two rings are just stacked but three rings tie a knot. Only at least three elements can create a stable structure.
First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
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Re: 香港六和彩官方网站白小姐特码救世报曾道人图库

Unread postby StevenO » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:35 am

[quote="hjyk126"]

Maybe your font is not a standard one.....can't read anything from the message except the links.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby neilwilkes » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:36 am

I'm not sure what the proper terminology is, but there's another one we use too.
The tendency of our species to make a story out of things as an explanation of them.
The real world does not work like this, with the "answer" to a lot of questions being "because" instead of "because x>y>z".
Logic fails us completely.
We can misuse logic (and cosmologists certainly do) by several different mechanisms.

The first one that leaps to mind here is the so-called "Unified Theory" we are hearing about from the consensus, and how so-called "Dark Matter" will help us here.
Here's the problem as I see it.
Even if we do know the complete set of "rules" for our universe (GUT), will this explain why things are & how others work? the answer is a categorical "NO".
Look at something as simple as Langton's Ant. The "GUT (Grand Unified Theory) of the ants world is well known to us, and it goes something like this:
The ant wanders around on an infinite grid.
Every time it comes to a square, the square changes colour from black to white or white to black.
If it lands on a white square, it turns right.
If it lands on a Black square, it turns left.
That is it - these are the ant's rules for it's universe, and describe everything that happens in it - or do they?
What happens in the real world is quite inexplicable - although we know the entire set of rules for the entire system,. things happen we cannot explain.
It seems to happen in 3 stages:
1 - Simplicity. During the first 2 or 3 hundred moves, starting on an entirely white grid, we see tiny patterns, often symmetrical ones.
2 - Chaos. The previous stage disappears, and you get random patches of black & white areas. No apparent structure, as in the previous stage is apparent.
3 - Emergent Order. The ant locks itself into a regular sequence, and repeats this infinitely (as far as we can tell, anyway).
It goes through a cycle of 104 steps, after which it has moved out 2 squares diagonally and the colours along the edge are the same as they were at the beginning of the cycle.
The cycle repeats forever, and the any builds a "highway" - forever (again, as far as we can tell).

The problem here is that there is nothing in the ant's universe rules that explains this behaviour. The only way mathematicians can "prove" the any does build a highway is to run it & see it happen. Okay - so what happens if we fiddle with the environment? Same emergent behaviour results every single time, as far as we can tell.
Go see for yourselves, and google a little toy called "Ants 95" - it is free, and fascinating.
It tells us that - and this is the point - even when we know the entire ruleset for an environment, it still doesn't tell us how it works.

Okay, let's look at another mathematical/logical error.
What evidence do scientists need to end up believing the things they do?
Let's look at a simple hypothesis - all X are Y.
Paradox arises here with surprising ease (or perhaps not so surprising to fellow EU board members) when you take the hypothesis and try to ascertain what makes it believable.
Let's take a look.....
Our hypothesis is "All Ravens are Black" (all X are Y)
We first take a look at a raven to see if it is black. If it is black, then this confirms the hypothesis to a limited extent. If we look at thousands of ravens, and they are all black, then these observations will further confirm the hypothesis.
Now, here's the problem. All X are Y is logically equivalent to "All non-Y are non-X". The 2 propositions, "all ravens are black" and "all non-black things are non-ravens" state the same fact. Therefore, the observation of thousands of non-black non-ravens will tend to confirm the proposition. This in turn leads to the counter-intuitive proposition that observations of things like brown bears, green parrots & white swans confirm the statement "all ravens are black" when it does no such thing.
Our mathematician-cosmologists seem to be using similar equations to arrive at their gravity-driven errors by assuming that all events in the universe are gravitational.
Hell - I am even reading that Quasars are now considered as "Black Holes" for crying out loud!!
See
and prepare to be stunned.

Sheesh.
You will never get a man to understand something his salary depends on him not understanding.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby StevenO » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:22 am

First, God decided he was lonely. Then it got out of hand. Now we have this mess called life...
The past is out of date. Start living your future. Align with your dreams. Now execute.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:59 am

The Top 5 Thinking Traps Exposed [from http://mercola.com ]

Your mind sets up many traps for you. Unless you’re aware of them, these traps can seriously hinder your ability to think rationally.

Here are five of the most harmful of these traps, and how to avoid each one of them:

1. The Anchoring Trap: Over-Relying on First Thoughts

Your starting point can heavily bias your thinking: initial impressions, ideas, estimates or data “anchor” subsequent thoughts.

This trap is particularly dangerous as it’s deliberately used in many occasions, such as by experienced salesmen, who will show you a higher-priced item first, “anchoring” that price in your mind.

Always view a problem from different perspectives. Think on your own before consulting others. Seek information from a wide variety of sources.

2. The Status Quo Trap: Keeping on Keeping On

People tend to repeat established behaviors, unless they are given the right incentives to change them. The status quo automatically has an advantage over every other alternative.

Consider the status quo as just another alternative. Know your objectives. Avoid exaggerating switching costs.

3. The Sunk Cost Trap: Protecting Earlier Choices

You pre-ordered a non-refundable ticket to a basketball game. On the night of the game, you’re tired and there’s a blizzard raging outside. It may be hard to admit, but staying at home is the best choice here. The money for the ticket is already gone regardless of the alternative you choose: it’s a sunk cost, and it shouldn’t influence your decision.

Be OK with making mistakes. Listen to people who were not involved in the earlier decisions. Focus on your goals.

4. The Confirmation Trap: Seeing What You Want to See

You feel the stock market will be going down and that now may be a good time to sell your stock. Just to be reassured of your hunch, you call a friend that has just sold all her stock to find out her reasons. You have just fallen into the Confirmation Trap: looking for information that will most likely support your initial point of view.

Expose yourself to conflicting information. Get a devil’s advocate. Don’t ask leading questions.

5. The Incomplete Information Trap: Review Your Assumptions

Overlooking a simple data element can make our intuitions go completely astray. Everyone keeps mental images that make them jump to conclusions before questioning assumptions or checking whether they have enough information.

Make your assumptions explicit. Always favor hard data over mental simplifications.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:00 am

How to Make the Right Decision in Any Situation [from http://mercola.com ]

Which job should you take? What car should you buy? Are you ready for another baby?

Life is full of tough choices, and the bigger they are, the harder they get.

Research shows that most people will not choose at all when presented with several good options. But practice, experience, and rules of thumbs can help you to make those decisions. Here’s how:

Analyze Outcomes

When making a choice, then, it pays to take some time to consider the outcome you expect. Ask yourself the following questions:

* What is the probable outcome of this choice?
* What outcomes are highly unlikely?
* What are the likely outcomes of not choosing this one?
* What would be the outcome of doing the exact opposite?

Thinking in terms of long-term outcomes can help you find clarity and direction.

Ask Why Five Times

For instance:

1. Why should I take this job? It pays well and offers me a chance to grow.
2. Why is that important? Because I want to build a career and not just have a string of meaningless jobs.
3. Why? Because I want my life to have meaning.
4. Why? So I can be happy.
5. Why? Because that’s what’s important in life.

Follow Your Instincts

People who make decisions quickly, even when lacking information, tend to be more satisfied with their decisions than people who research and carefully weigh their options. Your unconscious is very good at working through complex problems. People who “go with their gut” are actually trusting the work their unconscious mind has already done.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:17 am

Denialism
Denialism "is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or event."[1]

Individuals, or groups who reject propositions on which a scientific or scholarly consensus exists are said to be engaging in denialism when they seek to influence policy processes and outcomes by using rhetorical tactics to give the appearance of argument or legitimate debate, when in actuality there is none
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism


Weasel word
Weasel words is an informal term for words that are ambiguous and not supported by facts. They are typically used to create an illusion of clear, direct communication. Weasel words are usually expressed with deliberate imprecision with the intention to mislead the listeners or readers into believing statements for which sources are not readily available. Tactics that are used include:

vague generalizations
use of the passive voice
non sequitur statements
use of grammatical devices such as qualifiers and the subjunctive mood
use of euphemisms (e.g., replacing "firing staff" with "streamlining the workforce")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Argumentum ad nauseam
Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition or argumentum ad infinitum is a flawed argument, whereby some statement is made repeatedly (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to refute it anymore, at which point the statement is asserted to be true because it is no longer challenged. This is a form of proof by assertion. Proof by assertion is a fallacious argument technique. ...
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Ad-nauseam
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby KickLaBuka » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:19 am

one correction. Circular logic is bad. Circular reasoning is good. CR is saying, if a then b is true and if b then c is true, And if c then a is true, therefore you have a solid logical argument.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:37 pm

Noun: damage limitation
1.An effort to minimize or curtail damage or loss
- damage control
http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/DAMAGELIMITATION


Noun: control kun'trówl
1.Power to direct or determine
"under control"

2.A relation of constraint of one entity (thing or person or group) by another
"measures for the control of disease"; "they instituted controls over drinking on campus"

5.The activity of managing or exerting control over something
"the control of the mob by the police was admirable"

6.The state that exists when one person or group has power over another
"her apparent control of her husband was really her attempt to make him pay attention to her"


In his Rhetoric, Aristotle acknowledges that it would be better if we could make our case without either browbeating or flattering the audience; nothing should matter except "the bare facts." Yet he laments, "other things affect the result considerably, owing to the defects of our hearers."
— Stanley Fish, in his blog "Think Again" in the New York Times, 2008.11.09
http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/0 ... e/?apage=1

Propaganda
Propaganda is communication aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda


The Big Lie
The Big Lie (German: Große Lüge) is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf for a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Logic, Argument, & Logical Fallacies

Unread postby jjohnson » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:32 pm

-and the undisputed experts in specious argument seem to be lawyers and spokespersons for the Standard Model in astronomy and astrophysics,
these days! And political parties, most of whose leaders fall into the former category. Let's not go there, though.
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