The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby mharratsc » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:10 am

I've seen megalith-sized block excavation done in sandstone, and seen it done where human power and even camel power can be used to transport large loads like that (several documentaries & experiments replicating these feats.)

From the biological clues around the area, I'd agree with Nick C about Puma Punku and the other Andean cities being upthrust as valid- so the transport distances were probably more horizontal than vertical.

The one remaining quandary regarding Puma Punku (and actually some other little enigmas from that neck o the world) is the stonemasonry techniques that they used. You can see how sandstone and even limestone can be quarried and worked with simple tools like wood, other minerals, and even rope- but not the stuff they built there! You can't say that it was worked with anything less than diamond tools, but even at that the stonework shows no signs of tooling, and in fact many surfaces look as thoough they were polished!

This is the true enigma of this area... not that it's not interesting in many, many ways! It stands as physical evidence of geological catastrophe (not just a social one), the technology used in it's construction is a complete mystery when considered against the backdrop of a people that didn't even have a written language.. :o

For crying out loud- they have a stone with a 3 millimeter deep (uniformly deep) groove through it that is perfectly straight, and in the groove there are 3 millimeter holes of uniform diameter bored into the groove about a handspan apart... and there is no evidence of chipping of the hole whatsoever! If they were using sticks and bowstrings- that took them a lifetime-per-hole.

Mike H.
Mike H.

"I have no fear to shout out my ignorance and let the Wise correct me, for every instance of such narrows the gulf between them and me." -- Michael A. Harrington
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby flyingcloud » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:18 am

pressurized water?
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby tholden » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:23 pm

The one remaining quandary regarding Puma Punku (and actually some other little enigmas from that neck o the world) is the stone masonry techniques that they used.


As I noted, that and the question of how much stone they took from the quarry in one piece at one time.
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby soulsurvivor » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:35 pm

I promise, if you watch the video, a lot of your questions will be answered... not all of them, but enough that you can move on to the next big questions.
http://www.wimp.com/theparthenon
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby lizzie » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:40 pm

Flying Cloud said: pressurized water?


Anti-gravity
http://earthacupuncture.info/anti-gravity.htm

Levitation is produced by diamagnetism existing on the surface of the earth. Diamagnetism operates at 90 degrees from the magnetic axis (N-S), but in 3 directions (not in a 2-dimensional plane as usually shown; If magnetism flows on a plane on the Earth's surface, then diamagnetism flows straight up (ie.levitation; anti-gravity). Diamagnetism is the effect of a polarity reversal flow.

Bloch Wall: the neutral central third (triadic) element, a weak pressure (quadropole force field; gravity wave) generator, generated by two antithetical (dipolar) elements (polarities; vector force fields = magnetism and electricity; two vector tensor system); central neutral zone in the Earth's Dipolar Magnetic Field; point of zero (no measurable) magnetism; contains "Broken 8" wave zone.

Zero Spin Energy Transfer: the flowing of non-spin energy from the neutral (belonging to neither polarity) centroid force field (eg.Bloch Wall), which causes various spontaneous levitation systems’

Diamagnetic Earth Grid Points: Bow-Tie Knot levitation

All mass objects in the point area are charged; easily lifted at the center of mass with a slight upward pushing pressure; Bow-Tie Knot levitation. NASA is aware of the vanished planes, ships, and people often thousands of miles out in space due to the vortex-gravity toss. The radial distance of the zero-spin energy field is derived by measuring the distance from the vortex center to land's end.

Vortex-gravity research could be under the disguise of supposed atomic research (e.g. Los Alamos). The awareness of the Earth Grid reveals another incentive for world war and research; controlling earth grid points, portals (aka Earth Grid Wars)

The US controls at least 4 primary sites: Alice Springs (44), Easter Island (47), San Diego (17), Brookhaven (9), New York.

Schauberger simply designed a tubed Bloch Wall system, or artificial water flows with internal energy flow reversals. The waterfall's central spiraling cold flow is a natural anti-gravity effect area (reversed momentum). A stressed gravity detector registers a waterfall's center as 0 (or under), due to reversed anti-gravity momentum. Schauberger's implosion turbines interrupted the water suction flow with a special shutoff valve, hence creating a reactive back-pressure force (discharge cycle; levitating action) in a similar direction to the implosion turbine [simicircular (quadrapolar) pattern of the whirling fire hose nozzle relieves (radiates) water gravity (stress); water stress-gravity control]


What is Acoustic Levitation
http://www.tech-faq.com/acoustic-levitation.shtml

Sound is a disturbance or vibration that moves through a medium (air, liquids or solids) in the form of waves. The source of sound is any object that moves or rapidly changes shape which causes the air around the object to vibrate.

Consider a bell that is struck, causing a vibration. As one side of the bell moves out, it compresses the air molecules beside it, causing a 'high' pressure area - a compression - which corresponds to the 'peak' of a sound wave; as the side of the bell moves back, it pulls molecules apart and causes a 'low' pressure area - a rarefaction - which corresponds to the 'valley' of a sound wave. The bell repeats the whole process, causing a continuing series of compressions and rarefactions.

Sound is also reflective. Throw a sound at a surface and it will come back in a direct line; this is the principle behind echoes and sonar. Sound that is reflected results in interference or an interaction between compressions and rarefactions. Compressions that meet other compressions strengthen each other; compressions that meet oncoming rarefactions balance out.

Sometimes, interference and compressions combine to form standing waves which appear to vibrate or move in segments or to shift back and forth rather than travel from place to place. This creates an illusion of sound waves 'standing still' - the standing waves.

Standing waves have defined nodes (areas of minimum pressure) and anti-nodes (areas of maximum pressure). An object placed in the nodes of a standing sound wave will 'float' in mid-air as the sound waves counteract gravity.

An acoustic levitator has two parts - a transducer or sound source and a reflector which 'bounces' the sound wave back. The acoustic levitator creates a standing wave; the object being levitated is 'placed' within the area of the sound waves and will eventually find the calm area of the nodes where it will float.


Acoustic Cavitation
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/suslick/pdf/philtrans99335.pdf

Acoustic cavitation is responsible for both sonochemistry and sonoluminescence. Bubble collapse in liquids results in an enormous concentration of energy from the conversion of the kinetic energy of liquid motion into heating of the contents of the bubble. The high local temperatures and pressures, combined with extraordinarily rapid cooling, provide a unique means for driving chemical reactions under extreme conditions. A diverse set of applications of ultrasound to enhance chemical reactivity has been explored, with important applications in mixed-phase synthesis, materials chemistry, and biomedical uses.

The chemical effects of ultrasound do not derive from a direct coupling of the acoustic field with chemical species on a molecular level. Instead, sonochemistry and sonoluminescence derive principally from acoustic cavitation: the formation, growth and implosive collapse of bubbles in liquids irradiated with high-intensity ultrasound. Bubble collapse during cavitation serves as an effective means of concentrating the diffuse energy of sound: compression of a gas generates heat. When the compression of bubbles occurs during cavitation, heating is more rapid than thermal transport, creating a short-lived localized hot spot. There is a nearly universal consensus that this hot spot is the source of homogeneous sonochemistry.


Acoustic Levitation Chamber
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94KzmB2bI7s
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby mague » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:51 pm

flyingcloud wrote:pressurized water?


That was my first thought too. But to reach the pressure to cut stone (at least 700 bar) isnt easy. We can do up to 8000 bar nowadays. The average high pressure watercutter uses some 4000 bar. Those machines cut anything, even aluminium. But the remains of those machines will be there in 15.000 years. It is obvious that the puma panku people had knowledge, but we cant find any machine parts. Not there and not in egypt. Thats why i always look for organic machine parts like wood, leather and maybe simple metal parts. Those would rot over the years.

Also water cuts through and through. It is useful to cut blocks and patterns. But it is useless to cut cavities or to engrave something. Same with laser imho. Thats why i thought that an ultrasound chissel is the best solution. It is not that effective to cut blocks but the best way to cut cavities and engravements, because we are able to control the depth.
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby bboyer » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:56 pm

soulsurvivor wrote:I promise, if you watch the video, a lot of your questions will be answered... not all of them, but enough that you can move on to the next big questions.
http://www.wimp.com/theparthenon


Wow. What a labour of love/honour/discovery. Thanks for posting.
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. — Maitri Upanishad
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby mague » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:01 am

mharratsc wrote:I've seen megalith-sized block excavation done in sandstone, and seen it done where human power and even camel power can be used to transport large loads like that (several documentaries & experiments replicating these feats.)
.



Erm... the time they builded this there have been elephants in south america ;) Current knowledge is that the last one died some 4000 years ago.
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby mague » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:08 am

nick c wrote: After a cosmic upheaval the the Andes were catastrophically thrust up, moving Tiahuanoco, Lake Titicaca, etc. up to the 12,500 foot elevation.
Earth In Upheaval, Velikovsky, "Tiahuanacu in the Andes" pp 81-87

nick c


Did Velikovsky "borrow" that from Col. Percy Fawcett ?

Col. Fawcett also reported about a liquid made from plants that turned hard rock into something like wax or wet cement.

One of the last real adventurers. Maybe he found the city of Z and is still alive. Remembering him brought me back a bit into my teens when reading the old-school adventure books. *sigh*
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:03 am

arc-us wrote:
soulsurvivor wrote:I promise, if you watch the video, a lot of your questions will be answered... not all of them, but enough that you can move on to the next big questions.
http://www.wimp.com/theparthenon


Wow. What a labour of love/honour/discovery. Thanks for posting.

Ditto.
What a fantastic documentary - top marks to Nova and to Soulsurvivor for posting the link.
It is nice to see a temple to Wisdom (Athene) rising in this age of ignorance.
At around the 50 min mark the guy from Oregon uni, talking about the imagery on the Parthenon, says that it showed the difference between gods and men was not one of kind but one of degree. That is the essence of the Perennial Philosophy. We have descended by degrees and we can and will rise by degrees.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby soulsurvivor » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:09 pm

Could the Parthenon, complete with its inner gold & ivory statue of Athene, have served as a super capacitator?
The reference in the documentary was that the Parthenon was built to enhance knowledge through the use of optical illusion.
Several comments were made to the fact that there's no architectural plan, yet there are "other" buildings that predate the Parthenon that are similar.
Why this specific architectural design that incorporates an inner and outer sanctum along with the artemis curve in the barrels/capitols/etc?
How much electrical charge does marble hold?
It was said that thousands of men would gather at the Parthenon to vote. . . really?
What if they had a better reason, like recharging their own internal batteries?
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby mague » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:43 am

soulsurvivor wrote:Could the Parthenon, complete with its inner gold & ivory statue of Athene, have served as a super capacitator?
The reference in the documentary was that the Parthenon was built to enhance knowledge through the use of optical illusion.
Several comments were made to the fact that there's no architectural plan, yet there are "other" buildings that predate the Parthenon that are similar.
Why this specific architectural design that incorporates an inner and outer sanctum along with the artemis curve in the barrels/capitols/etc?
How much electrical charge does marble hold?
It was said that thousands of men would gather at the Parthenon to vote. . . really?
What if they had a better reason, like recharging their own internal batteries?


If you want to think in such categories, then you have to be aware that a capacitator is about storage. It requires give to be able to take.
Well, yaeh. I finally had the time to watch the movie. And they say the people wanted to build something that reflects their ideal.

You put in efford to depict your ideal and it will always reflect that ideal. Draw a funny picture when you are in a funny mood and you will always laugh when looking at the picture. Since the picture always makes you laugh you project a part of your laughter back into the picture. That is sort of a buffer, but it doesnt require electricity. It is rather something like a Orgone buffer. I use the word Orgone because i had no other word for it. Emotion-thought buffer sounds a bit weird.
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:10 am

soulsurvivor wrote:Could the Parthenon, complete with its inner gold & ivory statue of Athene, have served as a super capacitator?
The reference in the documentary was that the Parthenon was built to enhance knowledge through the use of optical illusion.
Several comments were made to the fact that there's no architectural plan, yet there are "other" buildings that predate the Parthenon that are similar.
Why this specific architectural design that incorporates an inner and outer sanctum along with the artemis curve in the barrels/capitols/etc?
How much electrical charge does marble hold?
It was said that thousands of men would gather at the Parthenon to vote. . . really?
What if they had a better reason, like recharging their own internal batteries?

And what would they do with the electricity?
The documentary said that the Greeks had knowledge of optical illusions and that they incorporated their knowledge in the design of the building.
I thought it said that there were no plans we know of but that the Greeks drew details on the walls etc and then sanded them off on completion.
All temples have an inner and outer part. The curves are part of the optical iilusion and the word is entasis not Artemis.
It said that thousands of men would go to the assembly to vote. The Parthenon would not hold anywhere near that many.
Little, if any, of the architectural knowldge would be peculiar to the Athenians. It was known all over Greece and Egypt and India for example.
The Indians use the traditional design to this day, it's called Vastu.
(Mayan is an Indian and not to be confused with pertaining to the Maya)
The moment Sthapati approached an ancient Incan residential building at Machu Picchu on March 15th, he pointed at the wall and said, "That is a thickness of one kishku hasta"-33 inches, a standard measure in South India first promulgated by Mayan. He proceeded to measure the buildings in detail and discovered each was indeed built on a module-based plan, following the system of Mayan's eight-by-eight squares. The module method was followed within small fractions of an inch, according to Thamby Kumaran, who was taking the measurements. The buildings were oriented toward certain points of the compass, also a principle of Mayan, rather than randomly placed. Also the lengths of buildings were never more than twice their width, as Mayan stipulated.

From Machu Picchu the three adventurers traveled to Saqsayhuman, an Incan site dated from 400 bce to 1400 ce. Here are the famous stone walls made of rocks weighing up to 160 tons and fitted together so expertly that a knife blade cannot be put in any joint. "Nobody knows how these stones were put in place," offered their guide when they first arrived on the site. Sthapati politely differed, and pointed out the insets chiseled into the base of many stones, as well as small knobs left on their faces. "These are for the use of levers, the exact same system we continue to use in India to move large stones. Thirty to forty men can move these very large rocks with this method," he explained to the guide's astonishment.

He could see other details of the stone working were identical to what is practiced in India, such as the method of quarrying stones by splitting off slabs. So too was the jointing and fitting of stones, the use of lime mortar, leveling with a plumb line and triangle, and the corbeling for the roofs. Corbeling is the method by which stones are drawn in layer by layer until they meet or nearly meet to allow a roof slab to be placed on top. Sthapati considers the similarity of this technology to that used in India to be very significant. The use of the horizontal lintel and the absence of the arch are additional noteworthy points of correspondence between the two traditions.

...From the high Andes the threesome flew to Mexico's Yucatan peninsula. They and forty-five thousand other Mayan aficionados arrived at Chichén Itzá in time for the summer equinox on March 21st. At the moment of sunset on the equinox, a shadow is cast by the steps of the Pyramid of the Castle [photo right and on page one, where the shadow can be seen] upon the side of the staircase to the top. The shadow creates the image of a serpent's body which joins a stone carving of a serpent's head at the bottom of the stair case. It is a stunning demonstration of Mayan astronomical and architectural precision.

Archeologists, tourists and New Agers all gathered for the event, each with their own agenda. Since the publication of The Mayan Factor-A Path Beyond Technology by José Arguëlles, the Mayans and their advanced calendar, astronomy, philosophy and architecture have enjoyed a wide following in the West. Sthapati too has found much of interest in Arguëlles' book.

Standard academia archeologists consider the New Age interest as bordering on superstition and refuse to even talk to anyone partial to Mayan mysticism. A recent book, Copan and Tikal, the Secrets of Two Cities, by Honduran author Ricardo Agurcia Fasquelle and archaeologist Juan Antonio Valdes of Guatemala, claim that the Mayan pyramids were actually castles for the wealthy and that what were once thought to be monuments to the Gods were in fact tributes to the dynasties of various kings. Not likely.

Native Mayan teachers such as Hunbatz Men, whom Sthapati met while in the Yucatan, are taking advantage of the interest to spark a revival of the original Mayan religion among the Mayans themselves. Since their brutal conquest and forced conversion to Catholicism by the Spaniards in the 16th century, Mayans have lived an oppressed and impoverished existence.

Amidst the crowds, Sthapati, Deva and Thamby again unsheathed their tape measures and closely examined the Pyramid of the Castle [see diagram right]. It too conformed to the Vastu Vedic principles of Mayan. The temple structure at the top was exactly 1/4th of the base. And the stepped pyramid design derived from a three-dimensional extension of the basic eight-by-eight grid system. The temple room at the top was also modular in design, with the wall thickness determining the size of doorways, location of columns, thickness of columns and the width and length of the structure.

Most interesting was the name of this structure-chilambalam, meaning a sacred space. It is Sthapati's theory that the Mayans worshiped the very concept of space, specifically a space made according to the modular system. This same idea is found in Hinduism in the sacred room in the center of the Chidambaram Siva Temple in South India, where space or akasha is worshiped-there is no idol. Chidambaram, Sthapati finds suspiciously like chilambalam, means "hall of consciousness." The concept of sacred space is at the center of the mystical shilpi tradition of India.
Ganapati Sthapati http://www.vastuved.com/aboutvaastu.html
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby soulsurvivor » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:40 pm

They could have used the "electricity" for recharging themselves.
Take a stance of feet and body with arms at sides.
Face the sun due south.
Raise both arms/hands above head.
Bring both palms together.
Keeping palms together, lower hands to heart.
Bring each arm out to side with palms raised.
Repeat.
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Re: The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

Unread postby enrgmn1946 » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:47 pm

I was talking with a civil engineer from uc davis about 40 years ago about the megaliths in question. He had been there during wwII making maps of the area while in the army air corp. I asked him what he thought about how these megaliths were constructed and he told me that it might have been posible that the granite or diorite may have been broken down into a concrete mix of sorts and then forms were made and solidified back by an unknown process.

When I was looking at the many videos and photos of Puma Punku, it appeared to me as though each one of the units had been prefabricated in a precice manner for standardization. Modern walls along freeways make fake rock formations and in some cases made to look like timber retaining walls - all done with concrete.

The grooves with the holes drilled in them looked like a place where some type of facade was attached, just like today. Modern skyscrapers have glass panels and walls attached to the skeletal frame of the building.

I am not of the belief that these megaliths were fabricated by hand with chisels and mallets. They look very much fabricated by machines that have cams or computers to insure price cuts.

I was watching a video that was in Russian. Apparently, they have come to the conclusion that there was advanced societies back then that had achieved nuclear weaponry. There are some places in the Amazon that show "rock vitrification." The entense heat needed to cause this could indicate a nuclear blast. The way that the huge rock parts to these structures at Puma Punku are broken apart and the way they are laying down, may indicate some sort of downward blast force. Has anyone taken radioactive readings?
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