Solar System and Planet Formation

[starbiter]

Is there an EU origin for Earth? From my reading of EU, i assume it was ejected by a gas giant. My vision is something like Venus when first expelled. Any thoughts?

[moses]

Did you read about the latest evidence that suggests that
the Moon, Mars and Earth have a similar origin that is
different to the asteroids ? Having come from the mainstream
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 140319.htm
one can't give this much credence, however it is interesting in
that these three planets are theorised to be together in the
Saturn System line-up. Thus suggesting they were formed from
the same astral object, but not likely at the same time, otherwise
they would likely be identical.
Mo

[Ironmonkey]

Hi, I think as Wall said that earth has come from Saturn as Mars, Venus and Titan. The moon and mercury seens to be similar and coming from Jupiter, maybe Saturn and i have a guess that moon has come from Uranus... I think that if we want to find life we must look for planets similiar to Saturn in the spectrum composition...

[starbiter]

Thanks Ironmonkey. I thought our parent was Saturn, but wasn't sure. The theory is similar for Venus, i believe, but more recent. My question is, was the Earth hot and similar to Venus today, when Earth was first expelled? If so, how much time would be required for the change? I think the first temperature readings of Venus were higher than the second readings. I think it's cooling as Dr. V predicted. Although with Solar warming making Earth and Mars warmer, this cooling may have reversed. Would the original atmosphere of Earth have consisted of Sulfuric Acid like Venus today? Talk about vacation paradise.

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:51 am Post subject: ELECTRICITY involved in the formation of planets?
OP "davesmith_au"


Giday all.

After following the links from lite-brite's post here: <old forum link no longer valid> to the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics; http://www.mpe.mpg.de/pke/PKE/Results1_e.html I kept reading the article and came across one of the experiments with plasma being carried out on the International Space Station:

During this experiment the plasma is turned off. Within a fraction of a second after the injection some 100,000 particles get together to form a big agglomerate (big blob in the center, magnified in the right image [below]) together with many smaller clusters (with totally the same mass as the big one). This result indicates a "run-away process". Further investigations showed that the clusters were charged, positively or negatively.

DustyPlasmacoagulationcloseupBE22Ca.gif (15.93 KiB) Viewed 19911 times

th_DustyPlasmaoscillations.gif (10.3 KiB) Viewed 19590 times

(original caption) Superposition of several video frames. You can clearly see the oscillations of
single particles, which means that they carry an electric charge...

Due to this experiment we might soon understand what happens in the early phase of planetary formation in a protoplanetary disk and how from microscopic particles finally planets like the Earth form - with the help of electrical charging.

I think ScienceApologist and a few of his mates are going to soon have to re-think their notion of "There is electricity in space, but it doesn't do anything..."

Thoughts, anyone?

Cheers, Dave Smith.
_________________
PlasmaResources.com
"If you are not prepared to think outside the square, you will always be confined within it..." Dave Smith.

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "iantresman"

Very interesting. There's also an overview of their Plasma Crystal Experiment with menu links to the experiment, and other aspects of the project. They note that "Gravity plays an crucial role for the structure of plasma crystals.", which is expected in dusty plasmas since grains are far more massive than ions.

Hannes Alfvén and JM Wilcox first modeled planet formation over 40 years ago, see the following which include the full texts online:


* Alfvén, H.; Wilcox, J. M., " On the Origin of the Satellites and the Planets" (1962) Astrophysical Journal, vol. 136, p.1016
* Alfven, H., "From Dark Clouds to Planets and Satellites" (1978) Lunar and Planetary Science, IX, PP. 10-12. 03/1978
* Alfven, H., "The early evolution of planets" (1981) In ESA The Solar System and its Exploration p 65-73 (SEE N82-26087 16-8)


_________________
Ian Tresman
http://www.plasma-universe.com

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: Didn't realise we could do video... Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

Click on this for a video of the coagulation process:



Wonderful stuff this technology!!!

Cheers, Dave Smith.
_________________
PlasmaResources.com
"If you are not prepared to think outside the square, you will always be confined within it..." Dave Smith.

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

Good job, Dave. Thanks for this important thread!

[bboyer]

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lite-brite"

A LOT can be inferred from the Plasmakristall site.
If you can read German there is a lot of useful info not in English too.

One thing that strikes me is the the weather implications. My
read is that low plasma densities and gas pressure make room
for the coulomb lattice. In the coagulation video if I recall
correctly, the plasma was briefly turned off... "Melting" and
re-cristallization are very interesting, especially for the
planetary implications. Planetary, i.e. low pressure zones?

Anyway, you are going to have to squint your eyes for this
one... A real SWAG on my part... but the first thing I saw when
I saw the "void" was this:

A Polar Jet. Do you see the vortices? Find a site with an
animated gif and it is like watching a prop turn.

http://www.mpe.mpg.de/pke/index_e.html
http://www.mpe.mpg.de/pke/PKE/Results_e.html

(click to view larger image)

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~dib2/GE100 ... here2.html

(click to view larger image)

Anyway, cloud formation could possibly be due to low plasma
density and barometric presure, making room for cellular/crystal water
structures (clouds). The type of cloud then dependent on a wide
variety of variables like temperature and altitude related
potentials. Change one of the variables and you get clouds,
rain, hail, or snow...

More jet stream images:

http://user.gs.rmit.edu.au/caa/global/jet.html

(click to view larger image)

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

Not that I'm grasping much of it, but interesting that polygonal structuring enters the picture here http://www.mpe.mpg.de/theory/plasma-cry ... dex_e.html , about midway down the page.

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: star formation ? Reply with quote
OP "Mo"

Isn't this evidence of star formation rather than planet formation ?

Mo

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: Stars, planets, whatever... Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

Isn't this evidence of star formation rather than planet formation ?

Mo

I'd say "A little from column A, and a little from column B..."

In the above video I could certainly see the potential for star formation, but the article inferred planet formation:

Due to this experiment we might soon understand what happens in the early phase of planetary formation in a protoplanetary disk and how from microscopic particles finally planets like the Earth form - with the help of electrical charging.

Either way it's fascinating stuff, and I think this research has the potential to bust the Big Bang wide open. That is to say, "There's electricity in space and it does plenty..."

Cheers, Dave Smith.

PS BTW thanks heaps Ian for the Alfven papers, I'm now starting a collection...
_________________
PlasmaResources.com
"If you are not prepared to think outside the square, you will always be confined within it..." Dave Smith.

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "arc-us"

From http://www.mpe.mpg.de/pke/PKE/Results2_e.html

Forces and potential energy inside the void
A complex plasma is, under certain conditions, expected to build up a regular 3-D structure, a 'plasma crystal', that fills the whole volume of the plasma in microgravity. But most experiments with PKE-Nefedov aboard the ISS showed an inhomogeneous filling of the plasma discharge space. The micro-particles are located around a particle-free zone in the center, the so-called 'void'.

Often the void reaches a size half of the diameter of the whole discharge. This unexpected feature that prevents large undisturbed plasma crystals needs further investigation, also to learn more about the forces inside the plasma.

In one dedicated experiment the plasma crystal was disturbed by a gas puff and particles were placed inside the void where they were expelled immediately. (See image on the right side.) From 198 trajectories (marked in the image) we can derive the effective potential acting on the particles inside the void.

See the original data movie: AVI (4.4 MB).

First observation: After the puff the void swings back and forth. But if we take into account this motion we get distorted trajectories! The particles move in the reference frame of the plasma chamber. This means the feature that causes the void is independent from the particle cloud. It acts with reference to the plasma chamber.

Fascinating stuff, indeed.

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lite-brite"

Katabatic winds and the VOID

More than just a convection cell? Can gravity alone account for this?

http://www.gdargaud.net/Antarctica/AntarSky.html#kata

[the] Fastest sustained wind on the planet, the katabatic wind can be a true danger. Only tornadoes are faster but they don't last very long. This wind can lift you right off the ground and also last for days. It's not a wind caused by storms or clouds, but by gravity slowly accelerating cold air along the long smooth slopes of the continent until it reaches record speeds near the shores, sometimes augmented by funneling effects of valleys, like at the old Port-Martin base where a world record wind of 325km/h wind has been recorded. If there is some recently fallen snow on the continent, it gets carried by the wind into a total whiteout of wind and snow fury that get inside any entrance: your collar or a slit on the side of a building window. After it has been blowing for several days and all the snow's been carried away, you can get this crazy wind with a clear blue sky like this picture shows. Since the wind always comes from the continent, it doesn't have time to form huge waves... usually. Look here to see what happens when it can form waves.

http://cires.colorado.edu/~maurerj/scat ... s_apps.htm

Another interesting application of scatterometry data over Antarctica is to derive the pattern of winds from patterns that occur in between different azimuth angles. Katabatic winds, which are gravity-driven winds of dense, cold air flowing down slope from the high elevation regions of Antarctica, dominate the Antarctic climate. These winds are some of the most persistent winds on the planet (Hildore and Oliver, 1993), closely following the topography and thus the same direction over long stretches of time. These stable winds carve characteristic patterns into the Antarctic surface over time at different scales: forming sastrugi, strange abstract sculpture like shapes, which are a meter or more tall and aligned in the direction of the wind, spatially coherent snow dunes with wavelengths of about 10 km, and large basin-scale surface waves on the scale of about 100 km (Long and Drinkwater, 2000).

Getting closer...

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.asr.2003.06.034

Abstract

The detail analysis of the aerological data from Vostok station (Antarctica) for 1978–1992 made it possible to find the dramatic changes of the troposphere temperature influenced by strong fluctuations of the interplanetary electric field ESW. The warming is observed at ground level and cooling at h>10 km if the electric field of dawn–dusk direction is enhanced (when interplanetary magnetic field ?BZ<0>10 km) is observed if the dawn–dusk electric field decreases (when ?BZ>0). There is a linear relationship between the value of ?ESW and ground temperature at Vostok station: the larger is leap in the ESW the stronger is temperature deviation. The effect reaches maximum within one day and is damped equally quickly. The temperature deviations occur not only while passing the front of the interplanetary shocks but while crossing the layers of interaction between the quasi-stationary slow and fast solar wind fluxes those are not accompanied by the cosmic ray variations at all. The appropriate response to the ESW changes is observed in tropospheric pressure and wind as well. It is suggested that the interplanetary electric field influences the katabatic system of atmospheric circulation, typical of the ice dome in winter Antarctic.

[bboyer]

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: ELECTRICITY involved in the formation of planets?
OP "mgmirkin"

Giday all.

After following the links from lite-brite's post here: http://web4.ehost-services.com/rainbow1 ... .php?t=437 to the Max Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics; http://www.mpe.mpg.de/pke/PKE/Results1_e.html I kept reading the article and came across one of the experiments with plasma being carried out on the International Space Station:

<snip image>

During this experiment the plasma is turned off. Within a fraction of a second after the injection some 100,000 particles get together to form a big agglomerate (big blob in the center, magnified in the right image [below]) together with many smaller clusters (with totally the same mass as the big one). This result indicates a "run-away process". Further investigations showed that the clusters were charged, positively or negatively.

<snip image>
(original caption) Superposition of several video frames. You can clearly see the oscillations of
single particles, which means that they carry an electric charge...

Due to this experiment we might soon understand what happens in the early phase of planetary formation in a protoplanetary disk and how from microscopic particles finally planets like the Earth form - with the help of electrical charging.

I think ScienceApologist and a few of his mates are going to soon have to re-think their notion of "There is electricity in space, but it doesn't do anything..."

Thoughts, anyone?

Cheers, Dave Smith.

*Retrieves his jaw from the floor...*

Sweet!

~Michael Gm.

P.S. They already need to revise their verbiage from "electrostatics" (stationary charges; NOT what we're talking about, but how they apparently want to frame the debate!) to "electrodynamics" (moving charges, subject to various effects; what we ARE talking about!).