Whoa there fella, whoa I say. This symbolism thread is not the one we discussed - any similarities are purely synchronistic.
I've been stitched up by this thread
My name is on it because, I'm guessing, Arc-us put it there when he split it from his thread. (Not a problem BTW).
I've no pot but I'll have a go at Pan anyway.
My favourite part of the wiki article is how it maintains that Homer and Plato got their Greek wrong but modern, non-Greek experts have corrected them. The psychology involved there frightens me to death.
The 'fanciful etymology' of Plato is in his Cratylus. Plato reduces all the etymologies of the gods' names down to referring either to movement or mind. This is basically Heraclitean philosophy - flux and logos. The only two gods which Socrates explicitly refrains from doing are Aphrodite and .... Dionysus.
The Greeks loved puns and word-play (Cratylus is an exercise in it) so why both meaning of 'Pan' can't be correct is beyond me. Both meanings make sense in the context of the symbolism.
I see Pan as yin to the yang of nymphs. Nymphs are usually described by the experts as representing natural phenomena but I see them as representing ecosystems or environments. For example trees host birds, insects, monkeys etc.; rivers: fish, insects, mammals. There are nymphs of valleys, mountains etc, etc. The connection to Cybele (Earth) would seem to support this view. What the experts call 'phallic' gods are creative elements of Nature. The phallus is a seed-dispenser. Everything comes from a seed and every seed needs an environment where is can grow (the female part of the equation).
The confusion surrounding the origin of Pan appears to me to be largely a result of modern experts trying to find the 'correct' version. The symbolism reveals the commonality.
A relationship with Hermes would connect Pan to the highest level of mind, i.e. the divine.
"In folk etymology, Πηνελόπη is usually understood to combine the Greek word for "web" or "woof" (πήνη / pene), and the word for "eye" or "face" (ὤψ / ōps), which is considered the most appropriate for a weaver of cunning whose motivation is hard to decipher,..."
Web = web of life. Woof (weaving) = the rich tapestry of life. Eye could be looking after nature and face the visible aspect/productions
of nature. (The cunning part is reference to Odysseus' wife Penelope).
"In Greek mythology, Dryope (Δρυόπη) was the daughter of Dryops ("oak-man").
Oak-man = world tree.
[This and subsequnet quotes from Pan wiki in Stefan's post above]
"Aeschylus in Rhesus distinguished between two Pans, one the son of Zeus and twin of Arcas, and one a son of Kronos. "In the retinue of Dionysos, or in depictions of wild landscapes, there appeared not only a great Pan, but also little Pans, Paniskoi, who played the same part as the Satyrs".
Same Pan, different Age therefore different manifestation or aspect thereof.
"In Zeus' battle with Typhon, Aegipan and Hermes stole back Zeus' "sinews" that Typhon had hidden away in the Corycian Cave. Pan aided his foster-brother in the battle with the Titans by blowing his conch-horn and scattering them in terror".
In Nonnus' Dionysiaca Zeus orders Pan to give his pipes to Cadmus to play. Cadmus had hitherto been playing his own pipes to entertain Typhon. Pan's pipes intoxicate the listener and are irresistible and Zeus wants Typhon to be intoxicated (unthinking) before he wades in with the thiunderbolts. Eros (the younger) is supposed to help by shooting Typhon with an arrow, also irresistible (Typhon is all ego - so he will become even more enamoured of himself). Eros bottles out and fails to turn up - love conquered by fear (Nonnus never misses a trick). Cadmus cons Typhon into giving him Zeus' sinews (which he returns to Zeus). Basically, Cadmus says to Typhon 'if you think I'm good with pipes you should hear my lyre playing. Unfortunately, Apollo destroyed my lyre [true] but if only I had some decent gut for strings
I could knock up a replacement'. What better 'gut'than the sinews of mighty Zeus, father of gods and men? The rest, as they say, is history.
"Echo was torn to pieces and spread all over Earth. The goddess of the Earth, Gaia, received the pieces of Echo, whose voice remains repeating the last words of others. In some versions, Echo and Pan first had one child: Iambe".
The first two sentences suggest to me cyclical time (descending). Or Brahma breathes out. Iambe is a goddess of verse, thus continuing the family's musical connection (harmony of nature, music of the spheres etc).
I can't work out the Pan versus Apollo thing. The key, I think, is in the symbolism of the lyre. It was originally invented by Hermes who gave it to Apollo as recompense for stealing his cattle (I think). The are stories involving the different number of strings on the lyre (e.g.
3, 7 and 10). I've not really looked at these, they just pop up now and again.
Silenus. If you recall the discussion we had about the Mysteries a few months back on the Ancient Textual's thread, this site came up:
http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/time ... eries.html
'Scene 2' features Silenus. As an aside: I said at the time that what the experts were calling a maiden looked to me more like a mature woman. If you look at the image of Penelope in the wiki link above, you will see what I mean. I know one is Greek and the other Roman but I
stick with my view. I also think that Silenus bears more than a passing resemblance to Socrates.
Marsyas. This story I would turn inside out (ouch). Marsyas' musical ability means he is in tune or harmony with Nature (or the Universe). Apollo is an aspect of the Sun (not worked out what specific aspect yet) which is itself a symbol of the ultimate power (The All). Removal
of his skin means he is no longer confined to a physical body (or has at least made some sort of step up). In Genesis, straight after eating the 'forbidden fruit', Adam and Eve notice that they are naked and cover themselves with animal hides to cover their shame (they must have been British - the only Europeans who don't have a naked body). Adam and Eve have just entered the physical realm, the world of generation.
"In the anecdotal account, he found the instrument on the ground where it had been tossed aside with a curse by its inventor Athena, after the other gods made sport of how her cheeks bulged when she played".
That is just a scurrilous rumour. Nothing could detract from Athene's beauty.
Judi Trott's maybe...
(Stefan can explain that one )
"Classical Greeks were unaware of such shamanistic overtones, and the Flaying of Marsyas became a theme for painting and sculpture".
That's a bit rich coming from modern experts who can't see the shamanistic overtones in Plato despite thousands of them picking over his words for hundreds of years.
"Jocelyn Small identifies in Marsyas an artist great enough to challenge a god, who can only be defeated through a ruse".
That's because she is a modern expert.
Stefan, you know Chinese martial arts, isn't there a style called 'drunken god'? And if there is, do you know the name of the god?