Moon Craters

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Moon Craters

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:33 pm

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: Impac Shmimpact... Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

Giday all.

I was just roaming around a few picture sites and came across a picture of a large crater on the farside of our moon, and it suddenly struck me how obvious it is that most 'impact' craters could not possibly be caused by an impact at all.

From: http://www.solarviews.com/cap/moon/farside.htm

farside2reducedsize.gif


Surely if the main crater or the one on it's rim closer to the viewer or the one on it's rim closer again could not be caused by an impact, for the thin wall where the rims meet would surely have been blown apart by an impact event.

Of course, if impact did not create these craters, it begs the question of what did. That can be easily be answered in an Electric Universe, and I feel this type of misnomer should get a lot more publicity than it currently does.

There are of course other features evident which cannot be explained by an impact scenario, such as the terraced walls of the main crater, and the peaks in the centre thereof.

Is anyone else as frustrated as I am at the mainstream ignorance of such evidence?

I would like others to post their finds of 'impact' crater pics which are clearly not from an impact on this thread, to gather everyone's observations of such in one place.

Please include the site where the pics came from, if possible.

If enough of this info can be collated in the one place it would be relatively easy to create an article from it, so post away and let's see what happens.

Cheers, Dave Smith.
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Last edited by nick c on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: thread title changed/ posts merged
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:39 pm

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "Solar"

Well in this photo of Hyperion my personal favorite "impact crater" is the one on the left. Well... no the one on the right... no wait!! - the one in the middle??

hyperian.jpg


Surely the 'impact' paradigm is discredited in the majority by the nature and sheer quantity of Hyperion's "craters". Seems to me that Hyperion simply should not exist were these "impact craters". Below is highlighted what I suspect to be its the largest "crater" remnant with domed center.

hyperian3.jpg


The remnant I theorize above bears the peculiar size relationship like that of Mimas and Lapetus. It usually fascinates me that there are such massive 'impact' zones in relation to a celestial body's size because it seems as if the scale should have obliterated its host .
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:41 pm

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "lk"

A lot of the TPOD crater images should be listed:
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/00subjectx.htm#Craters
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:42 pm

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Impac Shmimpact... Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

davesmith_au wrote:Giday all.

I was just roaming around a few picture sites and came across a picture of a large crater on the farside of our moon, and it suddenly struck me how obvious it is that most 'impact' craters could not possibly be caused by an impact at all.


If I might point out a few other "obvious features:"

Note the crater chain to the left of the medium crater below the large one mid frame. Three of the 5 craters shown roving left appear to share a common scalloped wall. This seems odd.

Notice also that the ROCK that has been "impacted" does not appear to be "cracked" or display and evidence of "breakage."

Rather most of the features seem to be curiously rounded off or melted-looking. Which seems "odd" from an impact standpoint and from the standpoint of a moon with no atmosphere to "weather" its surface. Shouldn't the crater rims all be in "sharp relief" if they're basically unchanged from their origins?

CJ Ransom has categorically shown that electrical arcs are capable of forming just such low-rimmed, flat-floored craters with a melted appearance. Likewise similar experiments by Dahlenaz (CRT experiments) and Plasmatic MnemoHistory (ionizer experiments) have replicated very similar crater results based on electrostatic and electrodynamic processes (I believe), respectively.

If one takes note of the largest crater in the image: one sees that the central region has a peak. But, strangely, it's not a single cone, it's a series of local rounded knobs! Does an impact by a large projectile typically leave well-centered rounded knobs as impact debris These hardly seem like the standard model's "impact rebound cone" or what have you. These items seem in some cases quite discrete objects.

If one goes to the larger image:
http://www.solarviews.com/raw/moon/farside2.gif

More details become apparent, if slightly fuzzy. Terraced walls do seem to present a bit of a problem... Among other things.

~Michael Gm.
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:43 pm

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Impac Shmimpact... Reply with quote
OP "Solar"

mgmirkin wrote:
If one goes to the larger image:
http://www.solarviews.com/raw/moon/farside2.gif

More details become apparent, if slightly fuzzy. Terraced walls do seem to present a bit of a problem... Among other things.

~Michael Gm.


You know what else usually strikes me. In the larger photo you've linked, when zooming in, the scalability is apparent as there are so very many smaller to tiny examples of the same process.
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:46 pm

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Impact schmimpact... Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

Giday all, seems plasma physics is not quite as new as we all might think. Specifically the comparison of craters on the moon with electrical effects in the lab was first made in 1775!! Yep, that's no typo, 1775.

I recently came across a pdf from: http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/pur ... 9M/native/ titled 'Tracking Down the Origin of Arc Plasma Science'.

On page 11 is this paragraph, quoted from J. Priestley, "Experiments on the circular spots made on pieces of metal by large electrical explosions," in The History and Present State of Electricity with Original Experiments, Third Edition, Vol. II. London, 1775, pp. 260-276:

June the 14th. I took the spot upon smooth pieces of lead and silver. It was, in both cases, like that on the brass knob, only the silver consisted of dots disposed with the utmost exactness, like radii from the center of the circle, each or which terminated a little short of the external circle. Examining the spots with a microscope, both the shining dots that formed the central spot, and those which formed the external circle, appeared evidently to consist of cavities, resembling those on the moon, as they appear through a telescope, the edges projecting shadows into them, when they were held in the sun.

(bold emphasis mine DS)

From the same pdf, a pic of a cathode arc discharge crater:

EDMcrater.jpg


(Original caption) "Erosion craters (here caused by a cathodic arc discharge on copper), similar to “cavities, resembling those on the moon” This image was obtained using a scanning electron microscope; courtesy of Burkhard Jüttner, Berlin."

It thus was over 230 years ago that someone may first have mused, "Impact schmimpact!"

Cheers, Dave Smith.
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:52 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: *Groan* Here's another obvious contender... Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

How's this from physorg.com.

hummockyands.jpg
hummockyands.jpg (13.6 KiB) Viewed 16240 times

Credit: ESA/DLR/FU Berlin (G. Neukum)

This image shows the striking Maunder crater lying at approximately 50° South and 2° East, in the Noachis Terra region on Mars. The High Resolution Stereo Camera (HRSC) on ESA’s Mars Express orbiter took pictures of the Noachis Terra region during orbits 2412 and 2467 on 29 November and 14 December 2005 respectively, with a ground resolution of approximately 15 metres per pixel. The sun illuminates the scene from the north-east (top left in the image). Maunder crater, named after the british astronomer Edward W. Maunder, is located halfway between Argyre Planitia and Hellas Planitia on the southern highlands of Mars.

With a diameter of 90 kilometres and a depth of barely 900 metres, the crater is not one of the largest impact craters on Mars at present, but it used to be much deeper. It has since been filled partially with large amounts of material. This colour scene has been derived from the three HRSC-colour channels and the nadir channel.

The High Resolution Stereo Camera (HRSC) on ESA’s Mars Express orbiter has obtained pictures of the Noachis Terra region on Mars, in particular, the striking Maunder crater.


(bold emphasis mine DS)


Does anyone realise how ridiculous that sounds? This 'impact' crater is 90,000 metres wide, and 'barely' 900 metres deep. That is a depth ONLY 1% OF ITS WIDTH!!! :shock:

That's 55 MILES across and only 2,950 feet deep.

So, did the 'ejecta' all go straight up, and fall straight back down into the crater? They try to (sort of) explain this away by saying one side of it caved in.

... It has since been filled partially with large amounts of material.

The west of the crater experienced a major slope failure, during which a large landslide transported loose material eastward, to the inner parts of the crater. The edges of the crater rim that collapsed exhibit gullies which might be associated with the mass transport of the material.


Let me repeat, this crater only has a depth of 1% OF ITS WIDTH Shocked . And there are probably many more like it, visually it certainly appears so, but I just noticed the dimensions of this one, and my brain said "that's only 1% of its width... " :shock:

Then it said "silly brain, that can't be right, read it again"... :?

"Still comes out to 1% of its width..." :shock:

"Can't be, that's only a shaving..." :?

:roll: *grabs the buttony thing* *tap tap tap ....* Stop laughing I only checked coz I thought I was gonna let rip with a huge dose of brain wind... but even the calculator said it was only 1% of its width... :shock:

Forgive me if I sound like I don't believe in fairy tales, but how on Ea... Mars could it be so shallow?

Impact schmimpact!

We really could do with a geologist in the house.

Cheers, Dave.
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:55 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: Dunes in Noachis Reply with quote
OP "Steve Smith"

Dave,

Good review of the crater and the formations. The electrical nature of the formation seems obvious, doesn't it? Once electricity is in your mind, you see the examples everywhere you look.

Dunes in Noachis

Dune Whiskers in Noachis Terra

Ebony and Ivory

The last image is particularly interesting. In the Mars in Miniature Picture of the Day, we briefly referred to one of our ideas that the silicon dioxide substrate that forms the 'floor' of Mars can be transmuted into iron through the action of the electric arcs. In the image, that process looks plausible.

Just like Proctor, Gale, Russell, Wirtz and virtually every other crater on Mars, there are the 'frozen' dunes on the bottom. In the Mars in Miniature Picture of the Day we mentioned that the dunes look solid rather than frangible. The same concept probably works at every scale....

Steve
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:00 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Impact schmimpact... Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

davesmith_au wrote:Giday all, seems plasma physics is not quite as new as we all might think. Specifically the comparison of craters on the moon with electrical effects in the lab was first made in 1775!! Yep, that's no typo, 1775.

I recently came across a pdf from: http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/pur ... 9M/native/ titled 'Tracking Down the Origin of Arc Plasma Science'.

On page 11 is this paragraph, quoted from J. Priestley, "Experiments on the circular spots made on pieces of metal by large electrical explosions," in The History and Present State of Electricity with Original Experiments, Third Edition, Vol. II. London, 1775, pp. 260-276:

June the 14th. I took the spot upon smooth pieces of lead and silver. It was, in both cases, like that on the brass knob, only the silver consisted of dots disposed with the utmost exactness, like radii from the center of the circle, each or which terminated a little short of the external circle. Examining the spots with a microscope, both the shining dots that formed the central spot, and those which formed the external circle, appeared evidently to consist of cavities, resembling those on the moon, as they appear through a telescope, the edges projecting shadows into them, when they were held in the sun.

(bold emphasis mine DS)

From the same pdf, a pic of a cathode arc discharge crater:

EDMcrater.jpg

(Original caption) "Erosion craters (here caused by a cathodic arc discharge on copper), similar to “cavities, resembling those on the moon” This image was obtained using a scanning electron microscope; courtesy of Burkhard Jüttner, Berlin."

It thus was over 230 years ago that someone may first have mused, "Impact schmimpact!"

Cheers, Dave Smith.


Ohh yeah, I read that a long while back (even bookmarked it 'cause it was that good!). Actually, there's a part 1 & part 2. But I think the part 1 is most interesting. If only for that image, and the fact that the person who discovered these arc melted spots IMMEDIATELY likened them to the craters on the moon. Common sense isn't as common as one thinks. But that guy had it right, in my opinion.

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:03 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: *Groan* Here's another obvious contender... Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

davesmith_au wrote:Does anyone realise how ridiculous that sounds? This 'impact' crater is 90,000 metres wide, and 'barely' 900 metres deep. That is a depth ONLY 1% OF ITS WIDTH!!! :shock:

That's 55 MILES across and only 2,950 feet deep.

So, did the 'ejecta' all go straight up, and fall straight back down into the crater? They try to (sort of) explain this away by saying one side of it caved in.


Let's think about just how ridiculous that sounds:

As you said, it's 55 miles wide, and 2950 feet deep. So, what, did one side's materials collapse over 20-30 miles through the crater...?? C'mon.

Who's taking bets that there's only a surface layer of sediment over a relatively unbroken surface with layering contiguous with that outside the crater (basically undisturbed layering) and no impact fracturing?

~Michael Gmirkin
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:04 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Dunes in Noachis Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

Steve Smith wrote:In the Mars in Miniature Picture of the Day we mentioned that the dunes look solid rather than frangible.


As a complete aside, what does frangible mean? And is it roughly synonymous with friable? I've seen both words, though not always in sufficient context to quite grasp the specific meaning. Looked them up on thefreedictionary.com and they seemed to have roughly the same definition. IE, easily broken, brittle, etc.

Just for my own edification?

As you were... Back to the discussion. :)
~Michael Gmirkin
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:06 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Dunes in Noachis Reply with quote
OP "davesmith_au"

Steve Smith wrote:Dave,

Good review of the crater and the formations. The electrical nature of the formation seems obvious, doesn't it? Once electricity is in your mind, you see the examples everywhere you look.

Dunes in Noachis

Dune Whiskers in Noachis Terra

Ebony and Ivory

The last image is particularly interesting. In the Mars in Miniature Picture of the Day, we briefly referred to one of our ideas that the silicon dioxide substrate that forms the 'floor' of Mars can be transmuted into iron through the action of the electric arcs. In the image, that process looks plausible.

Just like Proctor, Gale, Russell, Wirtz and virtually every other crater on Mars, there are the 'frozen' dunes on the bottom. In the Mars in Miniature Picture of the Day we mentioned that the dunes look solid rather than frangible. The same concept probably works at every scale....

Steve



Reminds me handily of the dunes in Proctor Crater / Russell Crater dunes, as well. As you say, a very repetitious pattern.

I still wonder how it is that the dunes are so completely localized and not splayed out dusting a much wider area more finely. Rather the dunes seem to be completely clumped up in one spot without intruding into the neighboring terrain, as pointed out in the Proctor Crater thread.
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:07 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: THANKS Reply with quote
OP "bdw000"

This thread reminds me how absolutly INCREDIBLE you electric universe people are.

I simply can not comprehend how NASA and astronomy in general can ignore you people.

Will we EVER emerge from the scientific DARK ages? Or will the evil empire rule forever?

Your work is much appreciated.
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:10 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Impact schmimpact... Reply with quote
OP "mgmirkin"

davesmith_au wrote:From the same pdf, a pic of a cathode arc discharge crater:

<snip image>


A great image. Rather fond of it myself!

davesmith_au wrote:How's this from physorg.com.

<snip image>

Credit: ESA/DLR/FU Berlin (G. Neukum)


Equally lovely...

Then you've also got features like this on the moon:
http://www.google.com/moon/#lat=-24.547 ... le&apollo=

Note the similarity to this image:
http://tesladownunder.com/Waterarcflybacklight1.jpg

Which is a composite or time-lapse of overlapping lichtenberg figures like this image:
http://tesladownunder.com/Waterarcflybacksingle.jpg

Reference images came from this page:
http://tesladownunder.com/HighVoltage.h ... %20effects

Also search for Craters:
Tycho,

Byrgius A (Which is actually a rim-crater, if you can believe it, and NOT the main crater itself!! Frankly, I think this crater could use a TPOD unto itself...)
Chart
Visible Crater w/radial streaking!

Jackson

And these craters on Mars (even closer match to the PDF's image, complete with similar ejecta albeit on much larger scale):
http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=-15.517 ... p=infrared
http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=-18.093 ... p=infrared
http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=-26.441 ... p=infrared

(The last isn't all that far from this rille with a feathery branching pattern at its tips reminiscent of diffusion limited aggregation or viscous fingering, but which also appears to have basically been gouged out and terminate in steep rims without a delta as would be expected of "rivers.")
http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=-26.441 ... p=infrared

Cheers,
~Michael Gmirkin
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Re: Recovered: Impac Shmimpact...

Unread postby bboyer » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:11 pm

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: Log Spirals Everywhere Reply with quote
OP "Steve Smith"

Solar,

Look carefully at Hyperion and you'll notice that it is a spiral, rather than concentric circles. In Birkeland current movement, the Bennett Pinch effect gradually spins tighter and tighter. Of course, this happens in time dependent scale -- a larger arc may require a few seconds, rather than thousandths of seconds. Since the pinch is impacting the surface at that time, it forms a spiral that grows smaller according to a specific formula.

You see that it begins on the outer edge as a crater and then forms a hump at the end. This helps to explain the possible formation of Shiprock, Brandberg and the Big Three. The terrain surrounding all of those features is sculpted by what can only be high energy plasma discharge -- conventional theory is certainly inadequate and the laboratory experiments bear out conclusions of the Electric Universe theory.

On Phoebe Spirals are Everything, as well... 8)

Steve
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