The issue of "exist" resolved

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby altonhare » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:09 am

How do you know you don't create or maintain the stability of the table with your thoughts? (Recall what can happen when you take DMT - materials can appear to 'fall apart').
-Divinity

To argue this we'd get into a long tangent about what thoughts are and what a table is, so let's try not to dwell on this.

However, fundamentally, the answer is that I do not. If I want to explain why the table retains its particular arrangement of continuous objects then I must attempt to do so via the scientific method. I define my terms and hypothesize (distance, object, table, atom, etc. etc. whatever). I theorize (I am physically connected to the table by a rope or chain or w/e and can pull on the atoms of the table or otherwise influence the table by manipulating my own atoms). I define whatever manipulation I think is necessary to perform this action as "thoughts". Then I explain why the table remains together by showing an example of a person influencing a table via these ropes or chains (or whatever physical intermediary I hypothesized). The final step of the scientific method is discussion and acceptance/rejection. I reject theories at this point on two grounds:

1) Another theory explains the same phenomena with fewer/simpler assumptions (simpler hypothesis).
2) Another theory explains more phenomena with the same assumptions/hypothesis.

I will have to somehow explain why, when I put a drink on the table and come back, the drink didn't fall through as the table fell apart. I will also have to explain why comets and asteroids nobody has ever seen or contemplated pelt the earth regularly.

If the table is within your realm of experience, I'm confident you created the table. Similarly with all the situations/events in your life. That's the purpose of consciousness - to co-create/bring forth the material from the non-material.
-Divinity

So all the stars in the sky don't exist until some astronomer sees them? Did the planets in our solar system not exist before a person spotted them? What about rocks at the center of the earth that nobody has any clue about, are they waiting for someone to contemplate them to pop into existence? If an asteroid nobody has ever seen or contemplated intersects the earth's orbit, will it go right through the earth?

You seem very hung up on structured definitions, which is almost impossible in a quantum universe, I would think, but is a requirement for mainstream physics.
-Divinity

Quantum IS mainstream physics, and they thrive on avoiding consistent and rigorous definitions like the plague. Quantum is a discipline that accepts and even demands contradiction as the norm. In science, our definitions make or break our argument via the scientific method.

So what they do is invent or make phenomena up to explain what we witness because they lack understanding.
-Divinity

It's worse than this. They have no idea about even the most basic aspects of physics. At the same time they claim immense knowledge because they've developed mathematical correlations to quantitatively match each observation they've made so far! They have counted live/dead deer in every possible way, from every possible angle, and in every possible forest. But they still cannot tell you what kills the deer, or even what a deer is.

I understand your example above but cannot explain why they are inseparable other than the structure does not permit the ball to escape. I'm not sure what that has to do with the backwash of all existence, i.e. aether.
-Divinity

The reason you cannot explain is because you are subconsciously trying to integrate contradictions. The proponents of the "quantum universe" view this as the status quo and would have it no other way, it allows them to seem smarter to laymen who are not as thoroughly involved in contradiction. They get to make fun of the laymen for raising such "trivial" matters. Young scientists these days are raised on contradiction and paradox so that they can hardly function within the scientific method. This washes over into the mainstream public, who are basically brainwashed to accept whatever the scientific authority says. Regular people just assume they are too stupid, that pointing out a blatant contradiction is trivial. Almost all of us are brainwashed on equations, if the scientist can write an equation to match the experiment surely he understands it! No, he just counted some deer.

To make a long story short, after six years of research, I had publicly reached the conclusion that there is an aether, and that aether is composed of subquantum particles,
- Div quote

If the aether is just a bunch of particles, why is it so special? Newton proposed light was a stream of particles and all of quantum is based on particles! Discrete particles just bounce off each other i.e. diverge, and there cannot be consciousness or life in a divergent universe as I have explained a bit back.

smaller than the Planck length, perhaps even infinitely small, perhaps in several layers of ever smaller sizes. Then I realized that an infinitely small mass is not constrained to light speed, since the considerations of relativity theory do not apply to an infinitesimal mass.
-Div quote

Infinitely small eh? Infinitely small either means it doesn't exist or means we need to increase the power of our microscope. If it exists it has shape and we can draw a picture of it or make a model of it, no matter how small it is. The only way for relativity to not apply to an "infinitesimal mass" is for the mass to be zero! The author is using "infinitely small" and "infinitesimal" to cover up what he actually means, a particle with zero mass! A blatant contradiction.

By this, I came to realize that the quantum property of "non-locality" is caused by superluminal transports of these infinitely small particles, where the informational content of the "quantum field" is carried by the vehicles of the subquantum particles.
- Div quote

Again, infinitely small is either "nothing" or means it's a lot smaller than something else. Since the author proposes it has 0 mass he makes it clear he means "nothing". The author has created a Theory of Nothing. A common practice in modern physics, especially quantum field theories.
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby junglelord » Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:17 pm

Question is, do vegetables think?
What part of thoughts are material? Certainly not the brain itself.
The ECG? Your frequency between .5Hz and 33Hz? If these fail to exist, are you alive? No your a vegetable.
You cannot think. Therefore your not real. Tell that to your family.
Lets just pull the plug on this one, shall we?
We all know that only thoughts created all the things around us.
Computers to space stations, material from nonmaterial.
The strongest nonmaterial force in the universe as far as I can tell is consciouness.
To your way of defining limits on everyone and yourself, this means that the force is not with you.
hahaha.

I am your father luke, come over to the dark side.
:lol:
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby junglelord » Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:28 pm

Ahhh, the half brain meltdown, lockdown, to the whole brain freedom. Its part of your fabric of perception.

Its what I am trying to teach you, and infact the answers do lie in Whole Brain thoughts. Nonlinear reality.
Its an issue of perception. Hare and plasmatic lack perception. Its not your fault, its your brain and half brain processess.

I still suggest Whole Brain exercises to escape from the linear paradox you are caught in.
I have devoted over 15 years to these exercises.
There is no other way to perceive the other side.
If your not secure in this, well your belief system is your god.
Ayn Rand the NWO puppet is god to some. Her verbal slight of hands, mental illusions, on par with any optical illusion.
However one can see right thorough all that smoke and mirrors and verbal diaherra! It requires Mental Perception that is non linear and not based on optical illusions to make every observation become clear, otherwise perception will fool you.

Dreams and the Mirror Mind have a Whole Brain State of being and there is full clarity and openness.
This is very well quantified in thousands of brain states studies.
Perception in the Whole Brain State is big money for the fortune 500 companies who give their employees whole brain seminars to increase exponentially their creative output.
Big Thinkers need big minds, whole brains, non linear induction problem solving. Where dreams become reality.
:D
http://www.consciousdreaming.com/lucid- ... -research/
Perception and awareness are truly amazing phenomena. The art of dreaming
is actually the art of awareness.One point to ponder is the fact that your linear logic was primarily created to help you make sense of our physical world. Since our perception
has evolved over millions of years we are deeply attached to it. This explains why so
many people violently refuse to change any firmly held beliefs or thoughts.

Take a look at the optical illusion above and you tell me how reliable our physical
senses are when confronted with conflicting sensory data (much like
attempting to process non-linear data in our habitually linear mode).


For more more detailed info about perceptual snafus and how our brains actually creates or "fills in the blanks" when our perception hits a bump in the sensory road, click here to check out an eye-opening website exercise.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html
The link will take you to a great hands-on exercise so you can experience this mental filtering process first-hand. Hopefully, it will add some perspective when you examine your surroundings, your perception and your awareness.

Your belief system acts like a non-physical experiential brain. Your physical brain tries to make sense of its sensory data and ensure physical stability while your beliefs systems attempt to create a consistent and comfortable you on a psychological level. In both cases there exists an innate tendency to filter the raw data as best as it can to fit into existing parameters. This psychological "filling in the blanks" often prevents people from becoming aware of sensations that they cannot make sense of logically. The funny thing is that this filtering process even filters itself from becoming known to your conscious mind so be sure to regularly analyze your existing beliefs and remove any limiting mental barriers.

Optical illusions are great, not only because they are amusing but because
they can be used to exercise your awareness and to simultaneously train
yourself to become a better dreamer. When you view an illusion from one perspective and then shift to view it another way, try to notice the shifting
and the perceptual rearranging that takes place during the cognitive transition
from one view to the next. With practice you can learn to develop your
ability to detect these little "mental-processing sommersaults". These
relocalizations of awareness are very similar to the subtle perceptual shifts
that occur while dreaming. Many lucid dreams are aborted prematured
because the dreamer was not able to quickly regroup and refocus his
awareness to the changing dreamscape. By becoming aware of this shifting process you can improve your ability to react and reestablish your awareness when you encounter any similar perceptual shifts within the dreaming realm. simultaneously train yourself to become a better dreamer


"The mind, once stretched by a new
idea, never returns to
its original shape."


Technically, brainwave entrainment technology has
been around since the beginning of time.
Its presence can be seen from the entrancing
steady beat of a tribal drum or shaman's rattle
to the flickering flames of an ancient fire.

The only difference is that, now, in our digital age we
have replaced these drums and lights with computers, sound-editing programs or light-pulsing eye goggles.
As we learn more about how our awareness and consciousness operateat different brainwave states, we become more familiar with these altered mindstates and better able to repeat these experiences and refine our ability to maneuver our awareness in general.

When I sleep my mind is wide open...I am not unaware, I am fully aware!
Therein lies the difference.
Being able to draw from your dreams.
Your innear dream mind and your mirror mind is linked.
Incredible state of awareness.
DMT and your own connection to the all knowing universe.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby altonhare » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:27 am

Its an issue of perception. Hare and plasmatic lack perception.
-JL

The reason we are at odds is precisely because it is not an issue of perception. A continuous object has shape whether you ever see it or not. A continuous object with location exists whether you believe it or not. We do not prove existence and Nature does not bow to our beliefs or misconceptions, whether they be true or false.

Since I don't believe in you and your thoughts, both which are inmaterial, I guess you don't exist.
-JL

I will repeat this every time I get a chance. Your belief or observation has nothing to do with existence. Something either exists or it doesn't whether you choose to believe it or not.

I still suggest Whole Brain exercises to escape from the linear paradox you are caught in.
-JL

Fortunately there are no paradoxes and I do not incongruously try to impose paradox. My method of thinking leads me down non paradoxical and non contradictory paths, giving the most productive results.

You are the one who states outright that "there are no straight lines in nature" but also propose that "sacred geometry", based on straight-line shapes, has some kind of fundamental significance. Who here engages in paradox?

The issue of 'exist' will get resolved but it won't be what anybody really imagined, LOL!
-Divinity

I did not intend the title of this thread to mean that I, or anyone else, had resolved the "exist issue" for all time. In previous discussions I was a bit confused on the issue and I made this thread once I had cleared it up.

I'm sorry you have not understood me Div. If you choose to accept and live with contradiction it is not up to me to impose otherwise on you. However I have enjoyed reading/talking with you more than many others on this forum. All the best to you.
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby Divinity » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:09 pm

altonhare wrote:
>>The issue of 'exist' will get resolved but it won't be what anybody really imagined, LOL!>>-Divinity

I did not intend the title of this thread to mean that I, or anyone else, had resolved the "exist issue" for all time. In previous discussions I was a bit confused on the issue and I made this thread once I had cleared it up.

I'm sorry you have not understood me Div. If you choose to accept and live with contradiction it is not up to me to impose otherwise on you. However I have enjoyed reading/talking with you more than many others on this forum. All the best to you.


It's o.k. Alton. I recognise that you and I think very differently. I am way too fragmented and imaginative for this forum really (but at least my mad ideas and inspiration are tolerated). Much of the time I do accept and live with contradiction probably because I get bored too easily and am not terribly self-disciplined or studious, as many here are. So, thank you for your patience and kind comments. All the best to you too. :D
Divinity
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby Plasmatic » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:11 pm

altonhare wrote:

>>The issue of 'exist' will get resolved but it won't be what anybody really imagined, LOL!>>-Divinity

I did not intend the title of this thread to mean that I, or anyone else, had resolved the "exist issue" for all time. In previous discussions I was a bit confused on the issue and I made this thread once I had cleared it up.

I'm sorry you have not understood me Div. If you choose to accept and live with contradiction it is not up to me to impose otherwise on you. However I have enjoyed reading/talking with you more than many others on this forum. All the best to you.


It's o.k. Alton. I recognise that you and I think very differently. I am way too fragmented and imaginative for this forum really (but at least my mad ideas and inspiration are tolerated). Much of the time I do accept and live with contradiction probably because I get bored too easily and am not terribly self-disciplined or studious, as many here are. So, thank you for your patience and kind comments. All the best to you too.



The above is an example that others might observe. This is the way disagreement could go should others cease ad hominem statements and simply debate the issues. The personal attacks are getting old.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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