Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 pm

Btw, I am not being argumentative or trying to prove any one wrong, or nit picking about words and terms. I don't even mean to change any one's mind. But I think that the truth about Galileo's clear scientific writing in the common language is very encouraging. One book observed that "he believed in the intelligence of his readers" for the most part.

And this may have been the real force of change, as more people could read what he had to say.
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:10 pm

Let me approach this from another direction. I assume it is important to know if the phrase "scientific paradigm shift" has any specific meaning; and if it does have a specific meaning, therefore, shouldn't it have an opposite or sharply contrasting type, which is worthy of its own classification in the taxonomy of great changes brought about by scientific discovery?

The invention of the airplane and the accomplishment of heavier than air flight -- was this a scientific paradigm shift?
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby hlg » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:28 pm

no, the heavier than air flight was common sense. every bird and every bee knows how to accomplish that...

the story of ikarus was around very long...

it was the steam engine and the inventors who figured out how to design working cycles in reciprocating engines...

that gave the power input to all sorts of inventions and for the realisation of ancient dreams...

finally dreams are bringing the paradigm shift...

and it is the nightmare of the established scientists and teachers, that everything they have learned by heart will not fit anymore to make their living...
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:49 am

hlg says, "No, the heavier than air flight was common sense." A very interesting and helpful remark which I would like to respond to.

Why was heavier-than-air flight just a common sense technological achievement, and not a scientific paradigm shift?

There are conditions that it has in common with a scientific paradigm shift. I would venture that it was a profound shift in scientific understanding, and led to remarkable changes in every day life, and that this was the result of scientific advancement. So let's say that it was no less of a dramatic scientific shift than any other in history.

Yet it is not considered a scientific paradigm shift. Therefore, what must be done is to itemize the conditions which would have made the accomplishment of flight (not just floating in a hydrogen or helium balloon) classifiable as a "scientific paradigm shift".

First, the Royal Society would have had to announce that heavier-than-air flight was possible and achievable; second, the experts and authorities would have had a crisis in which they decided amongst themselves that it was possible. Third, the practitioners of science would have decided to abandon the outmoded paradigm and adopt a paradigm in which aerodynamic sciences and evidence from the natural world militated that flight was possible, and that travel at the speeds necessary would not alter the biological functioning of the pilot. Fourth, the practitioners of science and academic world would have taken grants and created a prototype, which did not necessarily function, but would be hailed in the media with much fanfaire and wonderment at the powers of science. And fifth, at some unknown time after many announcements and the accumulation of much academic fame, some form of flight would be offered.

I suggest that if this had been the process, than the accomplishment of human flight by airplane would have been a tremendous scientific paradigm shift that the practitioners of science would place alongside the "discovery" of General and Special Relativity in all of the textbooks, much to their own credit and glory.
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby hlg » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:00 am

Birgit Bara: thats true, excellent description for the scientific process now...

the process was different since imanuel kant until albert einstein...

(the wright brothers new nothing about einstein, but much about ikarus i guess...)

thereafter there was a new establishment, defending the new paradigm. to me more a new belief-system than science

by the way, jerry pollack is not totally convinced, that science about heavier than air flight is that settled, if i got him right...
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Sithri » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:40 am

I wonder why people thought heavier than air flight was impossible when there are so many examples in nature?
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:23 pm

A little fun at Lord Kelvin's expense.
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:40 pm

Here is a nice article on the Wright brothers from Britannica 1988. The purpose of sharing this is to explore how so much in the world could change so quickly through the scientific achievement of two bicycle shop owners.

Wright, Orville and Wilbur, American brothers, inventors and aviation pioneers who achieved the first powered, sustained, and controlled airplane flight (1903) and built and flew the first fully practical airplane (1905).

Early years. The sons of a bishop of the Evangelical United Brethren Church [with five siblings], the Wright brothers displayed from their earliest years unusual mechanical aptitude and talent. Mostly self-taught, they began designing and building printing machinery, then went into the business of selling bicycles and later of designing and manufacturing them. It was the income from this business that supported them during the early years of their aeronautical experiments.


This is one of thousands of examples of discoveries and advancements that never happened until religious, political and economic freedom unleashed the genius of every day people. Able to support themselves and their research, as well as read and keep up with current developments, the young men also had the metallurgical knowledge and resources they needed to design and build their own parts.

The Wrights arrived on the aviation scene at the most opportune moment. Aerodynamics, structural engineering, engine design, and fuel technology had all reached a stage of development at which they could be welded together, to produce a practical flying machine. The Wrights, hardworking, pertinacious, and gifted with outstanding mechanical talent, were ideally suited to achieve the final conquest of the air.


The context is a Material Culture in the US that valued very highly solving every day problems using science, especially the sciences of organic chemistry (oil and coal based products), and of the metallurgical arts (mining and smelting metals for steel).

Wilbur first became interested in the idea of mechanical flight after reading of successful gliding experiments...But it was not until 1899, after observing how buzzards keep their balance in the air, that Wilbur realized that in order to fly successfully an airplane must operate on three axes. Like a bird, a flying machine must be able to bank to one side or the other, to climb or descend, and to steer to right or left, and, if necessary, perform two or all of these operations simultaneously.

To the Wrights, flight control was of primary importance. They had observed that buzzards controlled their movement in a roll by twisting their wings. So, when the brothers built the first machine in 1899 -- a biplane kite -- they fitted it with wings that could be mechanically twisted. One side could thus produce more lift and the other simultaneously less, which enabled the craft to bank for a turn or to roll back to a level position if disturbed by the wind. Apart from being the first to make a powered airplane fly, the Wrights achievement of three-axis control was their most significant contribution to aerodynamics and practical flying.


cont'd
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:51 pm

Before attempting powered flight, they decided to master gliding flight and built three gliders -- in 1900, 1901, and 1902. The first of these gliders was flown at Kitty Hawk, NC, and the others at the Kill Devil Hills, five miles to the south. They developed the last glider to a state of full controllability; it had a forward elevator for up-and-down control, a rear-rudder for turning right or left, and "wing-warping", or helically twisting for control in roll.

Into the building and testing of these gliders went an immense amount of theoretical and experimental work, including testing in a wind tunnel, in Dayton, which the Wrights carried out in the course of their researches.

Before they could build and fly their first powered plane, two formidable difficulties had to be overcome. First, they had to design and construct efficient propellers, which did not exist at the time; and second, they had to design and build a suitable engine because the automobile engines of the day were far too heavy.
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:20 pm

First powered flight. They completed their first powered machine, "Flyer I" (now popularly called the "Kitty Hawk") in 1903 and made history's first powered, sustained and controlled airplane flights -- from level ground without any assistance at takeoff -- at the kill Devil Hills on the morning of Dec 17, 1903. The first lasted 12 seconds; the last 59 seconds...actually covering more than one half mile of air distance.

An improved "Flyer II," equipped with a new engine, was flown at Huffman Prairie near Dayton in 1904. In 1905 came "Flyer III," the world's first practical airplane, which could turn, bank, circle, fly figure eights with ease, and stay airborne for more than half an hour.


Not bad, for a couple of young lads with a hobby.

Meanwhile, the US government, including the president, had decided to subsidize one Langley, an expert in aerodynamics and an impeccably credentialed man for the task.
Burt Folsom, "Uncle Sam Can't Count"
ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5fONzEwmfU
begin story at 28:04 -- a very short and lively 20 min. telling of the story

Because of exasperating and fruitless dealings with the US Army -- which refused to believe that the Wrights had a successful airplane to sell -- and also in fear of industrial espionage, the brothers refused to fly again until they were offered a fair financial arrangement, either by the government or a private company. As a result, they never once left the ground between Oct. 16, 1905, and May 6, 1908, but in that period they built several new aircraft and engines.


This is referring to the Copyright Clause of the US Constitution. "The clause states that the United States Congress shall have power "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.""
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:10 pm

France buys the airplane:

After a few secret practice flights in the United States, Wilbur made the first public flight of the new machines at a racecourse near Le Mans, France, on Aug 8, 1908; he continued his exhibition flights at Auvours nearby, to the end of 1908. In those five months Wilbur made more than 100 flights, was airborne for more than 25 hours, took passengers up on some 60 occasions, and made 7 flights exceeding an hour's duration, ending with a record flight of 2 hours and 20 minutes.


...Orville returned to Ft Myer with his newly built machine and easily won the US Army contract...

Wilbur died of typhoid in 1912.**[**A farmer's son, Alexander Fleming, developed anti-biotics in 1928, which kills typhoid]

Orville lived to make valuable contributions to aeronautics until 1948.


Image


Now I have to remember how I got on this subject. Good night!
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:06 am

While the invention of the controlled flight airplane is not considered a "scientific paradigm shift" in itself, it was still a tremendous scientific advancement which happened very rapidly. Whatever the debates and academic arguments were, they were at once settled through demonstration, and we have forgotten what the practitioners of science may have been saying about it altogether. New scientific and practical horizons opened for every one -- the distance in time from one place on the globe to another shrank forever, and the new views of the land and sea floor from higher altitudes would remove our total reliance on the way that maps were drawn, and allow us to see them from above.

If extraordinary changes in what is possible in science can happen overnight, then even though sociologists might not consider it a paradigm shift, it is still instructive to look at the way that vast changes can be introduced very quickly.

First, the scientific discovery or invention was equivalent to successful observation and experiment.
Second, the direct experience of the successful scientific achievement was shared by 100s of thousands of people, and even more through reporting.
Third, the scientific uses and applications brought about by the discovery were open-ended, and were yet to be determined by people in all fields.

So, rather than a scientific paradigm shift, there is in this case a profound scientific change without any need for the expert practitioners to first witness and then interpret the new science; and also, there is no need for these expert practitioners to apply the new knowledge for the public or decide on its underlying meaning in a new philosophy of their own choosing.

I would like to suggest that there were aspects of Galileo's discoveries with his telescope that shared much in common with the discovery of controlled, sustained flight, rather than with a sociological paradigm shift as described by Kuhn. First, the telescope allowed more people to directly experience the observations, not just an educated caste of practitioners -- who were intent on denying and minimizing the findings. Second, the writings of Galileo explained the significance and limitations of his findings directly to his readers, who were able to understand and evaluate his clear scientific writing. Third, the Copernican interpretation he offered better described the facts than Aristotle and Ptolemy, and the subsequent critical discussion involved people from all walks of life. This happened through the freedom of the press offered in Holland, and one or two other regions.

Therefore, history shows there are many pressures and events which may challenge scientific understanding at any time, and lead to profound changes for everyone. The practitioners of science may only play a partial role, and certainly their interpretations and their adoption of a new scientific paradigm (or worldview) in far too many cases has turned out to be a wrong turn.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby hlg » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:24 am

Now I have to remember how I got on this subject. Good night!


well, i am the culprit....

i said that the wright brothers knew more about ikarus than about einstein...

and that the findings about combustion engines set on the paradigm shift, since heavier than air flight was common sense... every bird is heavier than air...

they did their achievments by studiing birds flight and experiments. science was in their toolbox too...

paradigm shift could happen right now and here...

or here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vUfOiW0_bZ0
http://rexresearch.com/ebner/ebner.htm
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:47 pm

Interesting links hlg, thanks very much. May I ask if you are you posting from Germany?
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Galileo Galilee vs Aristotle and Ptolemy

Unread postby Cargo » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:12 pm

I want to try and grow some ebner plants now.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
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