V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:26 pm

Cargo wrote:Check out the size and local of the Bonneville+Salt+Flats, and it's relation to Yellowstone, the Navajo Reserve, and the Grand Canyon.




Bonneville can confidently be declared an inland Salt Sea.

Lake Chicago ... the proglacial precursor to Great Lakes, was fresh.

An aside to Bridget and Dr. V above:
The sudden flooding of the Black Sea in the 6th millennium B.C with Salt Water from the Med, is a great example of what might occur if the Salt was not introduced gradually.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:32 pm

Re: Earth's water & chlorine are from a Saturnian flare
Post by Younger Dryas » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:26 pm
An aside to Bridget and Dr. V above:
The sudden flooding of the Black Sea in the 6th millennium B.C with Salt Water from the Med, is a great example of what might occur if the Salt was not introduced gradually.


In the case of the appearance of the salt water oceans, it is hard to have that conversation without deciding on the previous sizes and salinity of the main bodies of water.

It's a very interesting topic, the mass extinctions and the adjustments made by the remaining species to the new conditions. Changing salinity would, in my view, be one of the mildest problems faced by life after the planetary electrical discharges. This might be the place to start a thread on rapid speciation, and the possible effects of radiation exposure on the surviving flora and fauna. Perhaps there is already a thread on radiation mutation, rapid changes in species over just a few generations, polyploidy and changing gravitational conditions?





The Black Sea
from encyclopedia com

The Dnieper, Southern Buh, Dniester, and Danube rivers are its principal feeders; the Don and Kuban rivers flow into the Sea of Azov. The rivers flowing into the northern part of the Black Sea carry much silt and form deltas, sandbars, and lagoons along the generally low and sandy northern coast. The southern coast is steep and rocky. The Black Sea has two layers of water of different densities. The heavily saline bottom layer has little movement and contains hydrogen sulfide; it has no marine life. The top layer, much less saline and richer in fish, flows in a counterclockwise direction around the sea. There is little tidal action.


Evidence suggests that more recently, about 7,600 years ago, at the end of a long dry period, it was flooded when the Mediterranean, having again become separate, broke through at the Bosporus, an event that may have scattered farmers from its shores into Europe and Asia. Some scientists have hypothesized that this event happened catastrophically and is the source of the biblical story of the Deluge.


Or perhaps people formerly inhabited the continental shelves, or even lower. There are many fine options. Too much to do. (:
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:10 pm

The Bosphorus is one of the few mainstream concessions to catastrophic realities. (Similar to Firestone et al and the inventive bolide explosion over N.A)

William Ryan and Walter Pitman, in Noah's Flood (1998), describe the evidence for the sudden flooding of the Black Sea through the Bosporus in 5600 BC, and the diaspora of the mixed-farming (farming, hunting, fishing) people to Europe and Central Asia (as well as the spread of Indo-European languages). Europe was largely populated by these farmers fleeing the catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea. By 5400 BC they had reached as far as Paris.

In circa 5600 BC, the Bosporus cracked open and the Black Sea was flooded with a fury of Mediterranean salt water dropping 500 feet (150 meters) into the depression, a process mostly completed in a few months. It is likely that externally induced seismic activity caused the Bosporus to open up. Once started, the flooding was unexpectedly rapid, moving miles per day in the low-lying river valleys. Details of this event will be incorporated much later into the story of a worldwide flood by the farmers and fisherman of the Black Sea.

Parts of the initial waves of people spread to Anatolia, the Levant, and Mesopotamia. At least, so it could be assumed. The warmer and moister climate throughout the world after 5800 BC allowed farming to return to the Middle East. This climate also opened up the sub-arctic regions for habitation: Norway, Sweden, Finland, northern Russia, Siberia, Alaska, and northern Canada. Thousands of years later, as the climatic conditions worsened again in the north, we will wonder why so many tribes appear to move south from the far north.

Those who dispersed to Central Asia return on horseback a thousand years later, as the armed Kurgan nomads and herders, and established themselves throughout Europe. After 2000 BC there were additional movements (of Indo-European speakers) from south central Asia into the Middle East (Iran and Anatolia).

The flooding of the Black Sea is well established and well dated. The secondary effect of the flood was the spread of agriculture into Europe and Central Asia with the migration of people away from the Black Sea region. Indo-European languages show up as far east as the western borders of China. An overflow of Indo-European speakers from Central Asia entered India and Persia.



The EU perspective: A wall of ice was seismically pressed upon by Earth rising closer to Saturn within a polar configuration.

Giving chronologers a headache sorting through the combined Narratives of 3147bc, 2349bc ever since.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:32 pm

The theory that the Black Sea flooded, resulting in the spread of the Indo-European language with some hunters, lake fisherman and farmers, does have a lot to commend it. I have seen far worse.

Older books call the Indo-European languages "Indo-Germanic", and before that, it was called the "Indo-Aryan" language group. Thus, the earliest linguists were actually attempting to support the idea that an Aryan group is the source of all culture and development through invasion (Aryan Invasion Theory or AIT). Supposedly the lesser, native groups then adopted the superior culture and language of the Aryans. As long as it is just some fisherman who built their homes in some lowlands, and as long as the historians don't proceed by using swas-ika symbols for evidence, it looks fine as a working explanation. (Do they use swas--kas to track the northern migration from the Black Sea?)

The Black Sea Flood theory certainly answers neatly the question of the spread of the Indo-European language group, and the source of the World Wide Flood myths. It has some appealing ideas -- such as these same people migrating south from the northern countries as climate cooled.

But let's suppose that the question is not, "What twas the local source of all of the World Wide Flood legends?" but is instead, "What is the source of the salt water filling the world's oceans?"

Another question I have is, "Can Velikovsky be considered to have predicted that Saturn's water would be salty, like our oceans, since it was published posthumously and released much later?"
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:33 am

Right, A prototypical man from the North that is represented with a Swastika. Try to think of it as Universal Symbolism. One that would have been deeply inspiring, and worthy of imitation. And less about the modern retardation.


TBH I have no idea how Dr. V came up with that. Perhaps an educated guess. The ancient testimony suggests strongly that no ring's were observed on Saturn until it went Nova and birthed Venus. Certainly its possible Earth was once ejected from the Planet Saturn. Oweing our elements to it.

Other than that I really struggle to come up with a logical explanation for that much Chlorine being delivered and nobody mentioning it. Personally I believe the mechanics are similar to Thunderstorms in your Vegetable Garden. Charge separation + bonding:
https://www.veggiegardener.com/how-ligh ... ur-garden/


I remember reading years ago that a single lightning strike creates 2 million tons of Phosporus in one square hectare of land. In my garden the foliage would turn dark green, and then everything would have grown significantly by the following morning.


Marine life still cannot live in the Black Sea (except for the surface areas) - a result of the mixing of fresh water via rivers etc. I used it to suggest what would happen if a flare of much greater magnitude was responsible and how oceanic marine life would not survive an event of such scale.
"I decided to believe, as you might decide to take
an aspirin: It can't hurt, and you might get better."
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby nick c » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:40 pm

Brigit Bara wrote:Another question I have is, "Can Velikovsky be considered to have predicted that Saturn's water would be salty, like our oceans, since it was published posthumously and released much later?"
Velikovsky's prediction was not published posthumously, it goes back at least to 1972 in the journal Pensee.
http://rogerswebsite.com/ah/Velikovsky' ... ctions.pdf
SATURN
Saturn contains (or consists of) water.
Saturn possesses molecular chlorine.
Saturn emits X-rays and/or cosmic rays.
The Saturnian rings consist of ice.


Actually the above excerpt from Pensee may refer to the video "Bonds of the Past" by the Canadian Broadcast Co. which was released in the same year,1972, but must have been recorded at least a year earlier (?) In it Velikovsky describes a pair of Saturnian filaments of water arriving on Earth, which was salty.
Start at 21:00 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjEC1vOIuxY

Am I having a deja vu or didn't we previously discuss this topic?
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:22 pm

You're right nick c, we did talk about that already.

On BBC, Velikovsky said,

"We have information from Midrashic sources that two filaments...of erupted mass from Saturn reached the earth and engulfed it in a deluge."

"How much water fell?"

"Enough to fill the Atlantic Ocean."

"What was the water that fell -- what was it like?"

"It was salty....It was not really hot."


But I did read that Velikovsky's papers were inherited by his two daughters, who did not release them until later. I read this on a certain website because I was so glad to hear that Dave Talbott was doing well and recovering, and I was wondering what his birthday was. Which of course led to Velikovsky's papers (:

Both in writing and on a television broadcast, Velikovsky said that Saturn's water had salt, and was the source of the Earth's Oceans.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby nick c » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:19 pm

By 1950 Velikovsky pretty much had his scenario roughly thought out as a series of related catastrophes, but his choice was to publish WiC, which covered the last two catastrophes in that series.

The references to Saturn in the Varchive were written in the 1940's. I believe that he regularly made such references (as in the CBC Documentary) in many of his lectures.
For instance the 1972 Pensee quote is a compilation of predictions (the fallout from his theory) so by implication the prediction must have been made before that article.

I also find it interesting that according to ancient sources Saturn emitted two FILAMENTS of material which eventually reached the Earth causing the Deluge. I am pretty sure that V was not aware of Birkeland currents as I do not believe he ever mentioned them, and the use of the word "filaments" is telling.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:29 pm

I mean, I suppose anything's possible - but doesn't the idea of that much water travelling that far through space and politely filling up the Atlantic Ocean like a faucet in a tub ... seem cartoonish?

Certainly we can associate water with lightning ... but its not entering the atmosphere as a liquid from outside space.
Water in this system Is an effect. Not a cause.

FWIW Amniotic Fluid begins within the Mother's system. 2% salt. Too much of said fluid, pregnancy fails, not enough preganacy fails. Mom's drinking a ton of water in the first trimester. And then the water breaks. Ankle biter comes kicking and screaming into the world, we all rejoice.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:08 pm

by Younger Dryas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:29 pm

I mean, I suppose anything's possible - but doesn't the idea of that much water travelling that far through space and politely filling up the Atlantic Ocean like a faucet in a tub ... seem cartoonish?

Certainly we can associate water with lightning ... but its not entering the atmosphere as a liquid from outside space.


We are at a disadvantage in exploring the topic of a brown dwarf star flaring any solid materials if we have never observed such an event with modern instruments. But that a brown dwarf star or a gas giant planet can flare is the assumption we begin with.

And if the brown dwarf star Saturn was in the process of capture by the sun, then it was in a transition between the two types, and especially active in finding new equilibrium with its electrical space environment.

But supposing that the gas giant Saturn flared, I would expect that the flaring occurred in the equatorial regions, like the sun. There is strong circumstantial evidence for an equatorial flare, composed of Saturn's water, in the fact that there are residual rings made of salt-water ice, of uncertain origin. Also, some of its satellites have layers of water ice. For example,

Warm Poles Suggest Enceladus’ Liquid Water Near Surface. That study estimated the depth of the ice shell to be less than 5 km (1.2 miles) at the south pole, while average depth on other areas of Enceladus is between 18–22 km (11-13 miles).


Regarding temperature, cont'd
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:39 pm

In Velikovsky's scenario, Earth was a satellite of Saturn and he publicly stated that the Earth's oceans were from its original primary star. The temperate climate on Earth in prehistory in this case was the result of the moderate conditions of Saturn's heat and light as a brown dwarf. But both material and electromagnetic flaring would be a peril for life on the satellite of the brown dwarf.

If a material mass ejection were to happen in the equatorial zone of this brown dwarf, it is not an impossibility that the water would not have instantly frozen because at that time it was still a star, enclosed within its own plasmasphere. Mild conditions on the satellite Earth reached even down to the poles, so we can reason that perhaps since even the poles were covered with rain forests, possibly light and temperatures were fairly even throughout the plasmasphere of the brown dwarf star.

Image

As a gas giant planet, having been captured by the sun and having lost its own electrical power input, the water from the same material ejection of water would freeze in space. The water crystals in this case would be strongly bipolar and would respond to the organizing force of Saturn's electromagnetic environment, forming rings.

ref: holoscience, "Assembling the Solar System" & NAS a's Dim View of Stars
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:54 pm

Would a flare in the equatorial zone of Saturn be cartoonish, "like a faucet"?

Shall I produce a couple of models of liquid flares, using fluid dynamics computer models?

I would not produce them myself! -- but my son enjoys those things. His fluid dynamics models actually kind of resemble the solar wind models that give us the ballerina skirt, and they are animated. I will try to post a gif.

A planet orbiting a flaring star would pass through the materials. I have no idea if Saturn rotated so rapidly in the past. But in this case the Earth possibly picked up its oceans by passing through the path of the filament -- not being hit directly by the filament, but passing behind it.
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:19 pm

So I'm confused are you and Dr V suggesting this happened within human memory? Or is this something that happened long ago when the Earth was in its infant geologic state?
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:44 pm

Fluid dynamics for a rotating source:

Image
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Re: V.: earth's water & chlorine from a Saturnian flare

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:47 pm

Fluid dynamics for a stationary source, within and enclosure:

Image


I told my son I was using his simulators for a discussion about solar flares -- which is not untrue. (:
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