Higgsy wrote:Nah, you're just eyeballing random pictures provided by the astronomical community and making up stories.
I didn't make up any stories, Higgsy.
Sure you did.
I showed you images that were clearly helically wound filaments.
You showed me images that you
interpreted as helically wound filaments. You were making up stories.
You didn't even deny that before you ran from the forum last time.
I came here originally because I was genuinely interested to see what you guys have. Then I realised you have nothing. So I come here for a laugh. But I get bored.
So instead you simply disappeared, after claiming that I hadn't proven they were "ubiquitous".
You haven't proven that they are ubiquitous, nor have you done any real quantitative physics with them. You are eyeballing pretty pictures and making up stories. How big are they? What is the plasma density? The charge separation, the magnetic field strenth, the electrical field strength, the current, the charge velocity, the temperature? What do these pretty pictures each signify? If I remember right, they weren't even of a single type of phenomenon. See for example, your first pretty picture below.
And whether they are ubiquitous (I'll get to that in a moment), can you explain how those structures came to be? And do it without resorting to what are essentially gnomes? How exactly does “shock” or any of the physical phenomena you believe in produce the helically wound filament seen in the upper right of this image, Higgsy?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Nebula.jpg
Because in this case they are not helically wound filaments. The Wikipedia page from which you took the image also recites the standard explanation which is that they are not helically wound filaments (or filaments at all). I'm OK with that - what evidence have you that it is wrong?
Here's another example that I asked you about earlier from a presentation whose title page coincidently shows a helically wound set of wires ( http://herschel.esac.esa.int/SFaxz2014/ ... HacarA.pdf
) titled “Understanding the internal substructure of Herschel filaments)":
Hmm, that presentation explains that they are sonic-like structures naturally created as part of the turbulent cascade and Cores & Stars are formed from the fragmentation of only those gravitationally unstable (i.e. fertile) fibers. And reach that conclusion based on quantified physics including hydro simulations. I'm ok with that. Do you have any evidence that they are something different?
That image shows polarization vectors along a plasma filament where stars are forming. There is no question that filament is helically wound because it's clear as day in the optical images ...
See above for the fact that these filaments are sonic-like structures naturally created as part of the turbulent cascade and Cores & Stars are formed from the fragmentation of only those gravitationally unstable (i.e. fertile) fibers
... that I also already posted to you ... and in descriptions throughout the presentation. Again, I direct your attention to the bottom filament. If you don’t see the characteristic spiraling double helix structure of Birkeland filaments, you’re downright blind. If you don’t see the stars forming along those filaments, you’re downright blind.
There you go, looking at pretty pictures and making up stories. I don't even know what that is a picture of, and you sure as hell haven't posted any reason to think that this is associated in any way with Birkeland currents.
Sooooo ... to me, the polarization vectors in the first graphic indicates electric currents are traveling down the filament and producing magnetic fields.
Let me help you out. You are posting pretty pictures and making up stories. If you want to actually consider the physics, the first step might be to read the book chapter those images come from, and consider not just the images in isolation, but the chapter as a whole. Here it is: Andre et al, From Filamentary Networks to Dense Cores in Molecular Clouds: Toward a New Paradigm for Star Formation https://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.6232.pdf
And by the way, you seem to have forgotten that in one of our earlier exchanges, you wrote: "I have already said that I accept the existence of braided filaments, and I will go further and say that I expect that electromagnetic effects in the plasma contribute to the braiding, but you are yet to demonstrate that such braiding is ubiquitous or near-ubiquitous at all scales." So it seems to me that you have already admitted that the images I've presented show helically wound filaments and that electric currents play a role in their creation.
Absolutely not. Some are not even filaments as we have seen. And I have never said that electricity plays a role in their creation. It might do, but you are yet to show that it does. See section 5.2 of the book chapter from which you took the last two images. (And I do accept the existence of braided filaments, but that doesn't change the fact that you are not doing physics, but eyeballing pictures and making up stories about them).
I don't do popular articles. Give me a reference to the published papers. However, I'll give you a bonus: here's what Andre, referenced twice in that popular article says about these structures: "Since the mid 1990s, simulations of supersonic turbulence have consistently shown that gas is rapidly compressed into a hierarchy of sheets and filaments (e.g., Porteret al.,1994; V ́azquez-Semadeni,1994; Padoan et al.,2001).
Furthermore, when gravity is added into turbulence simulations, the denser gas undergoes gravitational collapse to form stars (e.g. Ostriker et al.,1999; Ballesteros-Paredeset al.,1999; Klessen and Burkert,2000;Bonnell et al.,2003;MacLow and Klessen,2004; Tilley and Pudritz,2004; Krumholz et al.,2007). There are many sources of supersonic turbulent motions in the ISM out of which molecular clouds can arise, i.e., galactic spiral shocks in which most giant molecular clouds form, supernovae, stellar winds from massive stars, expanding HII regions, radiation pressure, cosmic ray streaming, Kelvin-Helmholtz and Rayleigh-Taylor instabilities, gravitational instabilities, and bipolar outflows from regions of star formation (Elmegreen and Scalo,2004)...Simulations of turbulence often employ a spectrum of plane waves that are random in direction and phase. As is well known, the crossing of two planar shock wave fronts is a line - the filament (e.g.,Pudritz and Kevlahan,
2013)...Li et al. (2010) have shown that filaments are formed preferentially perpendicular to the
magnetic field lines in strongly magnetized turbulent clouds"
There are loads of references in that quote that you can follow up. That's the way physics is done, quantitatively. What you do is to eyeball pretty pictures and make up stories. Now you know better.
"Every single ion is going to start cooling off instantly as far as I know…If you're mixing kinetic energy in there somehow, you'll need to explain exactly how you're defining 'temperature'" - Mozina