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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

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OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:38 am

OP-ED: Science, Politics, and Religion
By David Drew

"Conventional wisdom has it that Politics and Religion are best avoided in polite conversation. This seems sensible enough given that tackling either topic can be like walking on eggshells. As if to make life more difficult, however, science can now be added to the list of emotive topics sometimes best avoided. There is a simple reason for this. Science has become heavily politicised. Worse still, some fields of scientific endeavour seem to engender a religious fervour — dare I say a cult-like mentality — in their advocates. Little wonder we spend so much time talking about the weather in the UK, where discretion is still considered the better part of valour."

cont'd
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2018/0 ... -religion/





Reason for posting this thread in Electric Universe:
"Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs."
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:45 am

“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:31 pm

More ** from zyxzevn at: and
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:11 pm

“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:37 pm

“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:44 pm

One of my favorite passages from Popper's book, which I will retrieve later, makes the powerful case that any one can participate in science, including any one who can express himself reasonably well, and any one who will be affected by the authority of the scientists and the effects of their Scientific Paradigm.

The reason he said this is because that was not a feature of Kuhn's Science.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:16 pm

There are different kinds of paradigms in science:
1) the paradigms in the scientific theories
2) the paradigms and structure of the scientific community and its communication
3) the paradigms in the scientific method

Every paradigm needs to change.

The 1. is easy. There are many mainstream theories that are oversimplified or very limited in their application.
For example the paradigm of the mainstream that there are no electrical fields or currents in plasma,
mostly based on an oversimplification of plasma.

The 2. This is partially discussed in the mainstream.
Usually it is about peer-review, the majority fallacy and the
difference between popular science and real science.
Often there is also the false usage of Statistics, which is very common, but
often ignored by the mainstream if it matches with their believes.
And of course the problem of "Publish or Perish", which is the basis
of modern mainstream science.

I think the biggest problem is the authority fallacy.
It is often caused by the difficult maths in science, and false application
of specialized theories.
The "sceptic" community strengthens the authority fallacy as a community,
by attacking sceptics that doubt the authorities.
Sometimes they mix it with the majority fallacy, by claiming that there
is a "consensus" on a certain subject.

That authority and consensus is a logical fallacy, is clear when we
see that there are many authorities of Astrology, and they almost all agree
that astrology works. Whether this is correct or not, authority is not a logical basis for
any certainty.

The 3. is about the inability of science to deal with unknown things.
Example: "In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded".
The scientific method needs replications, which does not work if you don't exactly
know what you is going on.
For example: corruption is very hard to model in any branch of politics, especially because
a lot of it is hidden (or even secret).
For many phenomena it is also very hard to create models. So the tendency is to hold
on to old models, even when they are wrong.
And due to the Authority fallacy, these problems with these models are also ignored.

The scientific method also includes that new models should be based on older
"established" models. I think that this is a fallacy by itself.
As a scientist who is also a software developer, it is clear that "models" are seen in
science as "fixed", while in software we continuously have to change "models" to
fit with the observations.
That is because the models are always simplifications of reality, and this means that they
only work within a certain context and application. Developers always try to find the
best solution, and best model.
Yet, in science it is seen as "laws" that can never change. So it does not progress.

That is why we are now discussing 100 years old ideas on our phones.
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby webolife » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:39 pm

In the beginning, created...
I'm not sure how long we'll be able to keep this conversation from being dropped to the Human Question board :)
but I would like to comment on David Drew's quote from Feynman:

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts.”
~Richard Feynman


This could be re-phrased as:
Scientism is ignorance of the beliefs of the experts. ~[me]

A premise of scientific materialism is that that there is no place for faith in science, ie. science is strictly concerned with material causes and material effects. However, all honest scientists* will begin [or at least include] their claims or treatises with an exposition of their premises. Every scientific theory is based not upon the evidences put forth to support it as is the popular scientism claim, but rather upon a set of foundational or core beliefs, which may include a number of the following:
1. Atheism or Agnosticism or Theism
2. Materialism or a belief in the spirit
3. Determinism or chaos
4. Big Bang or steady state
5. GR and/or SR (Einstein-ism)
6. Infinite or finite universe
7. Light wave/particle duality
8. Uncertainty principle
9. Creation or saltation or mutational accumulation or natural selection
10. Phylogeny [macro-evolution]
11. Gravity-only
12. Electricity-only [EU/PC]
13. Aether
14. Radioactive dating methodologies
15. Ageless or ancient or recent creation or continuous creation
16. Various geologic systems: uniformitarianism, plate tectonics, gradual or rapid continental drift, magnetic reversal, expanding earth, biogenesis or abiogenesis of oil, EDM or impact, the great deluge or cataclysm, fossil record as a certificate of birth or a certificate of death, etc.
17. Saturn system origins
18. AGW or systemic variation of climate over time
19. Intrinsic or extrinsic or cosmologic redshift
20. {add more here}
Sometimes these premises are thinly disguised as scientific questions, but investigations of the writers generally yield the entrenched belief or faith base of the scientist. Without this revelation, the true pursuit of science degenerates [and has degenerated] to scientism, which may be characterized by the perception that "Most scientists say..." is followed by a true or reliable claim.
In short, every scientific claim is founded upon some faith base, the evidences proceeding therefrom often leading to the "logical" conclusion that the belief has been "proven". One test of an honest scientist might be that [by surprise] in mid pursuit a core belief is challenged and changed, re-starting the pursuit in a different direction.

honest scientists*[The decreasing percentage of these with respect to the increase of popular scientific literature is to be noted.]

I respect both Kuhn and Popper.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:19 pm

“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:10 pm

The destructive power of science, I think, must include the extreme Anthropocene Age Scientific Paradigm, which uses scientific studies and papers to convict every single chemical, em wave, cultivar, fuel and economic activity of people as being either carcinogenic, or destructive to the environment.

People who hold this scientific paradigm can always be counted on to love the science that has to do with belief about cosmology and distant stars and biology, but to forbid the use of science by every day people in every day life, such as using coal and gas for transportation, energy generation, chemistry, engineering, infrastructure, etc etc.. And these technologies, by the way, were developed by every day people through the encouragement of the sciences by Patents in Anglo-American law.

The holders of the Anthropocene Age Scientific Paradigm, just as Popper pointed out, are under the unconscious control of their own theory and language, and seek to exclude carefully from the conversation those who will be effected, in this case very negatively, by their pet paradigm.

I believe there is another scientific paradigm regarding demographics, which predicts both a shortage of workers and the end of the nation-state, and requires, of course, methods of preemptive action by radical changes to the demographics of each country.

There is considerable scientific activity devoted to disrupting and destroying adulthood -- "adulthood" meaning the progression of the individual male or female through love, to marriage and having and raising children.

Others may wish to defend these scientific paradigms but they are certainly not religions. At least we can identify them for possible scrutiny.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:55 pm

“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: OP-ED: Science, Politics and...

Unread postby silvanelf » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:59 am

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