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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - The issue of "exist" resolved

The issue of "exist" resolved

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby altonhare » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:42 pm

So, I came to this forum with a very narrow view of "exist" and have, with the help of some of the users (and some on a philosophical forum), resolved my philosophy and physics. This may seem pedantic, tiring, or even trivial to some. However, it's vitally important. The inability to distinguish an existent from a non-existent or an entity from a non-entity is exactly what got science into such a pathetic state. Without further ado, here we are.

Concrete Entity: Shape and location
Abstract Entity: Shape
Existent: A concrete entity or a relationship among concrete entities

Existent is the more general category. It can be subdivided:

1) Independent Existent: A continuous, indivisible entity.
2) Concrete Dependent Existent: A collection of independent existents (entites) with one or more particular set(s) of spatial arrangements.
3) Abstract/Conceptual Dependent Existent: A collection of independent or concrete existents with two or more consecutive set(s) of spatial arrangements.

To saving typing/talking you can just shorten these to "independent, concrete dependent, abstract dependent".

Thus, tables and cows fall into category 2. Love, justice, and consciousness fall into category 3. It may be difficult to understand the difference between 2 and 3 at first glance. The important thing to realize is that 2 is a *static* relationship whereas 3 is *dynamic*, the keyword is "consecutive" implying time. For the sake of discussion lets assume that the atom is the fundamental constituent, the argument works whatever we call the fundamental constituent. For instance, you may refer to a particular collection of atoms as a tree. The atoms are not always in precisely the same location, but you can assign a set of locations for all the atoms such that you still identify it as a tree if all the atoms are at one of the locations you assigned it. Mathematically this could easily become outrageously complicated, but conceptually it is not hard. So if some bark gets scraped off and a few trillion of the atoms are carried to the Andromeda Galaxy you still identify the tree because you can decide that, as long as a certain minimum number of atoms remain at some minimum proximity, it is still a tree. If the tree is chopped in half you may not identify it as a tree anymore although the two pieces lie within inches of each other. Instead of a tiny fraction of the atoms being separated you're now dealing with half the atoms in the tree, which may be above your minimum number. No matter how complex, simple, lengthy, or concise your criteria, it is always static. You always look at all the atoms' location simultaneously and decide right then if it's still a tree.

On the other hand, category three is dynamic. Love is not simply a picture of specific atoms at specific locations whether they are in someone's brain or body or whatever. It takes more than a picture of two people at some proximity to understand love. There must be interaction, motion, etc. Love is not just a candlelit fancy restaurant with two people sitting at a table. It is one person talking to the other, looking at each other, thinking, planning, feeling, etc. Consciousness is the quintessential example. There is simply no single set of spatial locations of entities that results in consciousness. Consciousness involves consecutive locations, motion, interaction, etc. Justice is not simply a courtroom, it is an action or set of actions. It is a judge pronouncing sentence or a revolutionary fighting for the neglected common folk. Category three is the ubiquitous experience of everyday, our lives, our experiences.
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby mague » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:59 am

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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:07 am

If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby Plasmatic » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:48 am

"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby mague » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:00 am

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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:13 am

Hi Mague,
Thanks for the reply. I'll not derail the thread any further but i'm with you on the Tarot etc.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby junglelord » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:39 am

Well done Mague. Excellent integration of facts.
DMT would explain both what we could know and why we forget.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby altonhare » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:00 am

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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby altonhare » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:00 pm

I thought of an additional quality to distinguish the three classes of existent while responding to some of GC's posts in other threads. The issue is whether an existent can be "created".

First, what does this word "create" mean? To some it means simply "to make something out of nothing". However this violates the axiom of identity. We must, then, define "create" merely as some kind of a change in the location of entities that already exist. Lets think about some simple examples of "creating" to help.

If I break a branch I can say "I created a stick". The stick and the branch are distinguished because they have different identities. The branch's identity involved direct attachment to the tree in addition to several chemical processes that depended on materials gathered by the roots. The stick's identity does not involve direct attachment to the tree or the same chemical processes as before (a new set of processes, associated with rot and such, would define the stick's identity). On the other hand, if I stack some rocks and walk away did I create a wall? Did I create a pile?

These two scenarios are fundamentally different because in the first case I identified the stick at the expense of the tree's identity. Certainly, the tree is not the same tree as it was before I identified the stick. As in the original post, I identify a class 2 existent by a specific set of spatial criteria of the constituents relative to each other. If breaking and separating one of its branches does not violate my spatial criteria I cannot identify the stick if I am consistent with my own criteria. I still must identify the totality of all the constituents as "tree". Alternatively I can decide to change my criteria for what I identify as "tree". In the second case I identified the wall/pile by virtue of the sum of individual identities. So, we have two scenarios for creation: creating an entity with an identity at the expense of one or more other entities' identity(ies) or creating an entity with an identity by the sum of two or more other entities' identities.

Expense Creation: Verb. Changing the location of one or more entities (which compose entity A) followed by the identification of an entity (B) only by altering the spatial criteria for identification of entity A.

So if I peel some paint off my car and identify what I pull off as a "flake" I have identified it at the expense of altering some spatial criteria for the car. For instance, before one of my criteria for identifying the car may have been that no more than .1% of the constituents of the paint were placed at a distance of no more than 1 micrometer from X many constituents of the car. Since I have violated that criteria I no longer identify it as car. I must reformulate my criteria of identification of the car to not include the paint that has been peeled off at all. When I do, I identify the flake with some criteria.

This all sounds terribly complicated and I no nobody is ever going to identify their car or other things in this much detail. In reality you will simply look at an object and decide it's identity. But you must realize that, at some level, what I have described is what is going on. Your brain must use some set of criteria. It is important to get these kinds of details down and to understand the principles solidly before going on to more complex topics and discussions.

Sum Creation: Verb. Changing the location of one or more entities (that are not entity A) followed by the identification of an entity (A) as a relationship among the entities moved in addition to any other entities.

So I identify a bunch of individual blocks. I move them closer to another bunch of blocks. Then I identify "pile" as some set of spatial criteria of each block relative to the other. This one's a lot cleaner/easier to understand.

Note that simply moving blocks does not create a "wall". The "wall" is a class 2 existent, a dependent existent. If you do not identify a set of spatial criteria for the wall then you cannot say that you created a wall, obviously, because you do not perceive it as such. If someone else sees you move the blocks and identifies the collection of blocks as "wall" then they may say "He created that wall". The wall's existence is contingent upon the conscious mind to identify it as such. Be careful about arguing this point. The blocks still exist because man A already identified them and they are at whatever location they are. I'm not claiming the blocks themselves "cease to exist" simply because man A didn't identify them as a wall. If no man had ever identified the blocks there indeed would be no "block" either because such a thing depends on the conscious mind to identify it as such. There are still constituents of the block that exist independent of conscious identification (class 1 existents, continuous entities).

Therefore, only class 2 existents (dependent concretes) can be "created" by definition. Class 3 existents cannot because they are concepts, not objects. This is a matter of internal consistency (verbs may only proceed concrete nouns, standard English) and avoiding absurdity (we can only imagine concrete nouns performing actions, i.e. people walk, chairs fall, but justice doesn't punish and love doesn't jump). Class 1 existents cannot be "created" because they are continuous entities (not made of smaller entities) and the only way to "create" such a thing is for it to appear out of nothing. This avoids violating the axiom of identity, which is why I expressly left it out of my definition in the first place.

Summary: Class 1 and 3 existents cannot be created. Only class 2 existents can be created by definition and to maintain internal consistency (within the framework I have arranged).
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby mague » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:59 am

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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby soulsurvivor » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:35 am

The process of creation depends entirely on seeing, knowing, and understanding everything available with which to "create". It's only nonsense when you're still in the "dark" about what really is existant. It becomes easier to say it's all "nonsense" rather than to admit you don't have a clue about existence.

Take "love" for example. It can become a "positive" or a "negative" force, or hey, even a neutral state, depending on how it's experienced. Capable of creation? Without a doubt, it is that type of non-concrete force that's responsible for all that exists, all that's created.

Love is the single most powerful force in this universe. That love has to be given to inner self is the first law of creation.
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby Plasmatic » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:20 am

"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle
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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby altonhare » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:53 am

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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby mague » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:57 am

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Re: The issue of "exist" resolved

Unread postby mague » Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:32 am

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