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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Instantaneous action at a distance

Instantaneous action at a distance

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby Roshi » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:11 am

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby comingfrom » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:55 am

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby Roshi » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:49 am

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby comingfrom » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:48 pm

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby comingfrom » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:30 pm

There is a better thought experiment to analyse this problem, than the ones mostly given.
It is hard to see the hands (or digits) on a clock that is so far away, so I think people get confused as to how we are getting to know the time in the distant coordinate, which would have to converted to a digital signal and sent to us on earth by radio waves, from someone aboard distant spaceship.

But try this instead.
Your clock is now a blinking light on top the spaceship. It blinks exactly once every second.
You are observing the blink as the spaceship travels away from you.
The spaceship is doing half c.

You see a blink, and set your timer and wait for the next blink.
After one second the light blinks again, but the spaceship has moved so much distance (½ a light second) in that second, so that the light from the second blink takes a little bit longer than the light from the previous blink took, to get here. So when the light gets here, we stop the timer and it says 1.something seconds. And every blink we receive takes that little bit longer than period between the previous two blinks. Due the spaceship getting further away, and the light having to travel that extra distance to us, every time the light clock blinks.

Hopefully you are still with me.

Now the spaceship has turned around, and is heading towards us at half the speed of light. Now the distance the light has to travel becomes shortened for each blink. The time between the blinks is less than a second, and each period is getting longer than than the last, because the vector is reversed. The spaceship is now travelling in the same direction as the light from the blinking clock has to take to get to us.

Most everyone leaves out the direction of velocity when discussing this problem, but the direction is critical. The direction can mean the difference between time being slowed down or time being sped up. Or, your relative clock maybe doing near light speed, but if it isn't moving away from you, nor moving towards you, say it is orbiting you, then the clocks remain in sync. The relative clock remains a constant amount of time in the past (however long it takes light to get to you, is how long in the past).

To prove this, rerun the experiment with your twin doing c in a circle around you in the same room. Both can see the same clock in the room. The high velocity twin isn't left in the past, nor takes off into the future. Though one is doing c relative to the other, yet no time transforms are happening. It takes virtually no time for light to travel from the clock to either observer, so they both see the same time.

Hopefully this helps.
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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby Roshi » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:13 am

Thought experiment:
Let's have points A and B, placed on the same line as O, on opposite sides. A - O - B. At a distance of 180,000,000 km from O each.

Object 1 goes from O to A in 1000 seconds. What speed does it have? Simple: 180,000 km/s. How was the speed calculated, where were those 1000 seconds measured? There are synchronized clocks in all three points. When the object passes through these points, people write down the time on the clock. Then they compare what they wrote, sometime later. They divide distance by time and obtain speed. No need to mess things up with "how fast does information travel".

Object 2 goes from O to B, and does exactly the same thing as Object 1, at the same time.
What is the speed between these objects? In 1000 seconds, the distance between them went from 0 to 360,000,000 km. That means the speed of Object 1 in relation to Object 2 is 360,000 km/s...

Relativists would like to use their law of composition of velocities, then we would only have a max of 300,000 km/s speed between objects, this means they were traveling at 150,000 km/s each, they would not have reached A and B. I am sure they will say the objects can't even reach A and B, even if that's how the initial speed was measured, and it's a perfectly legal speed and they used that speed in their composition formula.
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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby comingfrom » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:22 am

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby Roshi » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:23 am

Any object that has no acceleration can be considered the origin of a reference frame.
First:
Object 1 goes from O to A with a legal speed
Object 2 goes from O to B with a legal speed.
These are given, these are the data of the problem. Now, we can select any of the objects as the origin of a reference frame. What is the distance of object 2 in relation to object 1, after 1000 s? It's 360,000,000 km, meaning object 2 moved with 360,000 km/s in relation to object 1. Else - both objects did not reach A and B, but this is given, and it's perfectly legal - until we want to calculate the speed between objects...
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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby Roshi » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:36 am

If you have a speed - you can only measure it in relation to something else. If suddenly the rest of the Universe disappears, you cannot know if you have a speed or not. Even if before you had a speed. Except, if there is something like the aether, and you can measure in relation to that.
If you are on a ship you can feel the acceleration, but if that stops, you cannot know if you are moving or have stopped.

Let's say there are only 2 objects in the Universe. They are so far away, they have no influence on each other, or information about one another. They move towards each other. Until they see one another, they can't know if they are moving or sitting still. Then if they collide, they can conclude they were moving, even if there was no indication of that... Even then, both objects could conclude that they were hit by the other object that was moving towards them, because they themselves did not feel they were moving.

This is kind of strange. Shouldn't there be a way to determine motion, even in the absence of other objects?
Or: does motion exist in the absence of another object? It does not - it has no effect, then we suddenly hit something, and we find out we were in motion.
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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby comingfrom » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:16 pm

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby webolife » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:02 am

How is it not understood that, as far as measurement is capable of informing us, all action is at some distance? A space exists between [in the interaction of] all objects, in other words, an interface of space. This spacial interface somewhat defines the interacting objects' fields. The motion of objects can be described using either Galilean or Einsteinian relativity. Where the breakdown[s] occur, is in trying to aetherize the spacial interface. To eliminate the space, some assume a practically solid or infinitely dense aether, others possibly conclude that action is induced upon objects by something immaterial in space, or that that action is instantaneous across that interface. Neither of these is particularly palatable to the secular physicist, or to modern science as a general rule. We want all of our forces to be embodied [corporeal], so we invent objects like gravitons, photons, yes... even electrons. The word "invent" should not be taken to signify that these are necessarily non-existent, simply that they are models built upon the assumption of a fundamental billiard ball view of interacting objects. So how would I resolve this dilemma? I take the instantaneous interaction across distance that we observe as being what actually occurs. An object and it's field are a unity. If a compression, collapse, decay, or energy "loss" occurs at the centroid of the field, a/the/any peripheral point in that field is immediately changed likewise, a detector or observer at that point noticing a "tug" -- actually a PUSH -- toward that centroid. This push [better understood three-dimensionally as a squeeze] is variously denoted as "gravitation", voltage, charge, mass, nuclear force, etc. I refer to it [in memoriam of the late Robert Archer Smith who coined the term] as Centropy or "centropic pressure". In this view, it also describes LIGHT. Light action across a distance is the only way it is observed. It is detected at the peripheral interface, or not at all, never "along the way". In other words, when we see it, it is there, not somewhere else. No amount of femtophotographic processing negates this observation. And in the unity of fields, that instantaneous light action is operable at any scale, infields of all hierarchies. The vector of light, as with gravitation, is toward the centroid, therefore must be instantaneous in its action. No speeding photon bullets, or paradoxical wavefronts. Simple vectors of force or pressure, simply described by optical ray diagrams. Speed of objects is necessarily relative, but speed of light is irrelevant, since light is the interaction of the periphery and the centroid of a unified field. The twins paradox is therefore irrelevant. On a side note, it must be understood that any object moving through space, as in an orbit or circuit, is being acted on by tremendous forces both to accelerate it away from its system centroid, and to push it back into that field centroid. When thinking of objects as isolated we forget that these "outside" forces/pressures have significant fundamental material effect, eg. the operation of clocks. The basic rule of decay [a la 2nd law of thermodynamics], is also due to this universal system of pressure. Centropy = Entropy.
Haven't put my two cents worth in for while, so thought I'd insert again here ;)
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby comingfrom » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:43 pm

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby webolife » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:05 pm

Hmmm... interesting line of questioning, but no: light "interupted" is simply blocked as is a book sitting on a table. The so-called shadow casting is no more phenomenal than the gravitational "shadow" between the table top and a scale beneath it upon the floor "waiting" to detect the weight of the book. From the viewpoint of the scale, the book is weightless since it's not detecting anything. This lack of detection of the book in no way invalidates the gravitation it is experiencing, in the same way that our inability to detect the blocked light as we observe from within its shadow does not infer that the light is not "there". I'm analogizing gravitation and light here deliberately as I believe both are manifestations of the same universal unified centropic pressure field. Remember too that all light is "invisible" until it is "blocked" by a resonant detector. There is no "visible" light [colors] except in the photodetector upon which it impinges. So seeing the light affirms its [omni]presence no more than closing your eyes and temporarily blocking its detection at the retina. To fully understand that last statement you must shift your paradigm to that of light as a pressure directed toward the source rather than as some objects emitted away from it. In addition, when light is "blocked" [at least]two things happen:
1. Some of it is reflected/vectored toward another detection device, and...
2. It's "invisible" manifestation to the blocked detector occurs as a different energy level of light, eg. x-ray or infrared/radio. If our eyes were resonant to these "colors" we would never experience a light shadow.
I'm hoping the above [too short] explanation leads to some additional questions for clarification. I've explained all this at great length on other boards.
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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby comingfrom » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:37 am

Gravitational shadow? :shock:

Ants that walk under your table should begin to levitate, if the table is creating a gravitational shadow.

I don't think you can compare light to a book falling.
Unless your book represents a single photon.

Then we need a source of books, which is continuously radiating books.

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Re: Instantaneous action at a distance

Unread postby kevin » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:20 am

The table is a resistor relative to the book.

In a perfectly packed near solid universe of geometric packing, all points are in direct contact with each other.
The memory field of this planet is a net implosion field, the stars are net explosion fields.
All 3D memories (atoms) have variant degrees of orientation relative to the overall planets and are generally vectored towards the heart centre of the planets memory field, there is no gravity to shield, as it doesn't exist.

Instantaneous actions at a distance will not occur in 3D, but in alternate geometries of the packing where no memory field resistances will be.

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