Kepler was wrong

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby john666 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:36 pm

jtb wrote:Thanks, Paul. Not only am I a simpleton, I'm a dumb simpleton. I figured this out the other day and still got confused and wrote my last response. john666, thanks for the support but I was wrong.


jtb wrote:


If Earth was rotating on a real axle, a point on that axle would always face the direction of orbital motion and noon would occur approximately at the same time daily as is our experience. What then is the explanation for the seasons? Either the sun is moving vertically up and down to create the seasons, or, Earth is doing so in its orbit around the sun.

"The proof would be quite the same if the earth stood still and the sun moved in the circle round it, as according to Ptolemy and others." This is a quote from Copernicus on page 319 in A History of Astronomy From Thales to Kepler, by J.L.E. Dreyer.

An alternative explanation for noon to occur every 24 hours on a sphere in every season is for the sun to daily orbit horizontally, and at the same time, vertically in each season around a stationary Earth.


Nobody has given you a valid explanation for seasons.
Nobody has explained why at the equator you have 12 hours day/12 hours night, all year long, while at the 45th degree parallel you have the starkest differences in orbit between the summer sun and the winter sun.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby jacmac » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:21 pm

jtb said:
365 rotations/orbit: left side of Earth is facing the sun. 180 degrees, or 6 months later the right side is facing the sun.


Would you care to clarify that statement, or say where you get that from ?

It is an incorrect statement. Starting from high noon at your residence, each time the earth rotates one day it will be high noon again at your residence. This is the same for every day and the same for all the days in the year. It will be the same regardless of the time of year, the number of degrees from your start place, or any other measure. This is what "a day" means.

If you don't agree with this basic concept, I have nothing else to say.

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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby comingfrom » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:46 pm

Nobody has given you a valid explanation for seasons.
Coincidental you should say that right now. I am just in the process of reading one now. (I read a few paragraphs and leave it and think about what I read, then go back and read those paragraphs again. If I'm happy I understood, then go on and read a few more paragraphs.)

I guess it is anyone's opinion whether it is valid or not, but I find it the best.
Climate and the Seasons.

~Paul

Another thing the mainstream passes over is the fact that the Earth chooses to have its south pole
closest to the Sun at perihelion. Given a gravity-only celestial field, how does that work? Obviously, it
can't be explained with gravity-only. It can only be explained with charge. As I said, the Earth leans
over at perihelion to allow as much charge into its south pole as possible. It is trying to create the
straightest path for the charge at the time when there is most of that charge available.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby jtb » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:23 pm

From my thread “Does the Moon Rotate?”, I determined that an axis with a point continually facing in the same direction is connected to some thing external to its orbit (exp. your arm could be this external thing holding a pencil as an axle), as opposed to being connected to the center of orbit. In other words, if a point on Earth's axis continually faces the same direction, regardless of its location in orbit, it can't be attached to the sun by gravity.

Physical sciences deal with real physical objects; metaphysical, or the mind; with concepts. Truth is achieved when mental concepts match physical reality. The invisible things of this world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.

An axis is an imaginary axle used to determine truth. As such, an axis must operate like a real axle to match reality. A real axle is always physically attached to some thing: center of orbit or some thing external. If attached to the center of orbit, a point on the axle is constantly facing the direction of motion and is perpendicular to the center of orbit. A point on an object mounted on this axis rotating at a constant velocity, will return to the same position with every rotation: noon is ~noon every ~24 hours of rotation. Also, if a point on the mounted object is continually aligned with a point on an orbiting axle, the object is rotating about the center of orbit; not on its axle. Exp... The nose of a carousal horse mounted on the pole through its back always faces the direction of motion and is perpendicular to the center axle. The horse is rotating about the center axle; not about the pole through its back.

If the orbiting axle is attached to some thing external, and the mounted object is continually facing the center of orbit, it indeed is rotating about the axle, which I call orbital rotation. This velocity of orbital rotation must be independently added to the velocity of axial rotation (point on an object realigning with a point on an axle: one complete rotation). If Earth's axis continually faces the same direction throughout its orbit as proposed by Kepler, and Earth makes one complete rotation about its axis in ~24 hours, noon would be constantly advancing by the value of orbital rotation. However, since noon is ~noon every day, Earth acts as though its axis is attached to its center of orbit (sun). You can't have it both ways. Through observation and experimentation we know that noon is ~noon every ~24 hours, and therefore, we can not assume that Earth's axis continually faces the same direction per Kepler.

Earth rotates 360 degrees on its axis in ~24 hours = one solar day. Earth elliptically orbits the sun 360 degrees in 365.25 days = One Year. In other words, Earth rotates 365.25 times from Spring Equinox to Equinox. 360 degrees / 365.25 days = .9856 degrees. Earth makes one ~24 hour rotation every .9856 degree of its 360 degree orbit.

Conversely, 365.25 days / 360 degrees = 1.0145833 days. Earth rotates 1.0145833 times for every degree of its 360 degree orbit. Orbital rotation would be .0145833 X 24 hrs X 60 min = 20.99 minutes. In other words, if Earth's axis is continually facing the same direction regardless of its location in orbit as proposed by Kepler, noon should occur ~21 minutes later every day. That is not what we experience.

Earth's axis attached to the sun, whether tilted or not, can not account for the seasons. The seasons only work with a tilted axis continually pointing in the same direction. Since neither scenario, axis attached to the sun or to some external thing, matchs reality, an alternative to consensus science must be sought.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby moses » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:15 pm

jtb,
The Earth does not rotate 360 degrees in 24 hours. It is the Sidereal Day you need. Earth may well take 365.24 days to go from spring equinox to spring equinox, but the Earth does not rotate 365.24 times in doing this. You work it out.

Earth does not rotate 1.0145833 times per degree, it moves 1.0145833 days per degree. So that ~21 minute figure is wrong. It is clearly about 4 minutes per day because 4 x 365.24 is about equal to 4 x 360 = 24 x 60 = 1440 minutes per day.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby kevin » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:15 am

http://davidmcminn.com/pages/smnum56.htm

IMHO,
Everyone is fixated upon the physical, instead consider that all of the physical creations ( stars/planets/moons)
are each within their own unique memory field, and it is the fields within fields within fields that determine the displacements of the physical.
Those fields have polarity and equator in duality of counter rotating northern and southern hemispheres, with the northern hemisphere been dominant over the southern ( think of a route outside of a ball been fractionally larger than the route internally of the ball)
That dominance determines so called spin rate.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby jtb » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:57 am

The distance from the equator to the S. pole is 2,000 miles farther than the distance to the N. pole, that's why they say Earth is pear shaped. It's not round like NASA's photos of Earth, and that's probably why the continents change size from one NASA photo to another. Earth and the continents must be constantly changing size and shape.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby nick c » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:57 am

The distance from the equator to the S. pole is 2,000 miles farther than the distance to the N. pole, that's why they say Earth is pear shaped
This is a ridiculous statement!
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby jtb » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:41 pm

nick c wrote:
The distance from the equator to the S. pole is 2,000 miles farther than the distance to the N. pole, that's why they say Earth is pear shaped
This is a ridiculous statement!
I agree. I was just rounding off. Some sources say the distance to the north is 10,000 Km and some say the distance to the south is 11,777 Km. I don't agree with any of the distances.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby moses » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:48 pm

That should be 2000m not 2000 miles.
Cheers,
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby nick c » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:55 am

That should be 2000m not 2000 miles.
Thanks, now that makes sense. 2000m as compared to the radius of the Earth is a small fraction of one percent.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby jtb » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:55 pm

1,777 Km is 1,100 miles. I was rounding in the wrong direction. Equator to S. pole is 1,000 miles further than equator to the N. pole on a pair shaped Earth. It's still absurd, but may explain why it's so much colder at the S. pole. The rays of the sun have to travel so much further.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby nick c » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

Moses has pointed out that the difference between radius at the N pole vs the S pole is 2000 Meters. That is a little more than 1 mile.
Is there a source for that?
Does it take into account that the N pole is frozen ocean and the S pole is on a land mass? The ice on the South pole is over 2700 meters thick.
Anyway, a 2000 meter (1.24 miles) difference between the radius from equator/N Pole and equator/S Pole is miniscule.

The radius of the Earth at the equator is 6378.1 km (3963.2 miles)
The radius of the Earth at the poles is 6356.8 km (3949.9 miles)
The difference is due to the equatorial bulge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
If the Earth is an oblate spheroid why isn't this evident in NASA images from space?.
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby jtb » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:13 am

moses wrote:jtb,
The Earth does not rotate 360 degrees in 24 hours.
Earth rotates 360 degrees (once) in 24 hours on its axis as we experience every day.

It is the Sidereal Day you need.
One Sidereal Day (distant observer) per orbit is an imaginary axial rotation. Junior sitting on a carousal horse is not rotating about the pole through the horse's back; however, mom with a Sidereal observation sees Junior make one complete rotation per orbit. That's because Junior and the horse are orbiting the center of the carousal; not the pole through the horse's back. If Junior is actually making one rotation per orbit on the horse's pole, mom would see two rotations, one axial & one orbital, but Junior is experiencing only one axial rotation per orbit.

Earth may well take 365.24 days to go from spring equinox to spring equinox, but the Earth does not rotate 365.24 times in doing this. You work it out.
Thanks Moses for catching this error. Earth rotates 364.24 days from spring equinox to spring equinox. Since the sun is a distant observer, sidereal, one imaginary axial rotation must be subtracted per orbit.

Earth does not rotate 1.0145833 times per degree, it moves 1.0145833 days per degree.
A day is an axial rotation; not an orbital rotation.

So that ~21 minute figure is wrong.
Thank you again. It's ~17; not ~21 minutes

It is clearly about 4 minutes per day because 4 x 365.24 is about equal to 4 x 360 = 24 x 60 = 1440 minutes per day.
What you are describing here, the 4 minutes per day, is the imaginary axial rotation experienced by mom as she watches Junior on the carousal. Since a year is measured from the distant perspective of the sun, Spring Equinox to Equinox, we must subtract one imaginary axial rotation per orbit to obtain actual axial rotations per year. Earth actually experiences 364.25 axial rotations per orbit or year.

364.25 days / 360 degrees = 1.0118 days. Earth rotates 1.0118 times for every degree in its 360 degree orbit. .0118 X 24 hrs X 60 min = 16.992 minutes. In other words, if Earth's axis is continually facing the same direction regardless of its location in orbit as proposed by Kepler, noon should occur ~17 minutes later every day. That is not what we experience and that is where the 4 minutes you propose comes from: ~21 - ~17 = 4 minutes.

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Re: Kepler was wrong

Unread postby moses » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:57 pm

Hi jtb
"Earth rotates 364.24 days from spring equinox to spring equinox."
Obviously not, did you mean rotates 364.24 times per year? If so then you'd be wrong. Each day the Earth rotates once plus a little bit lasting about 4 minutes. So in one year Earth rotates 365.24 times plus 365.24 x 4minutes = one day, near enough. So the Earth rotates 366.24 times per year, near enough.

You are changing frames of reference and then using the results in the old frame of reference in the new. That is an error and a headache, so I will pass explaining it. Just use the distant observer for all of it.

So 366.24 rotations /360 degrees. Earth rotates 1.017333 times per degree. Earth rotates 1 + 4/365.24 times per day = 1.0109517 times per day. Earth rotates 1.0109517 times per 1440 minutes.

After this you are talking about precession which means that the Earth's pole moves or perhaps the direction of the Sun is curved. So after a year the Earth's pole points to a different position and that position is 21 minutes apart from the previous position. 26,000 x 21 = 546,000 minutes = 379.17 days, which is close enough to a year, which confirms the 21 minute figure. Earth's rotation probably has nothing to do with precession.

Cheers,
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