David Talbott wrote:
When did the fact that I started my life-long research more than 40 years ago become a detriment?
I didn't say it had. My point was that as you were writing in the 70s you only had access to the
material which was available then.
Also, your suggestion that more contemporary "reviews" of world mythology and symbolism have surpassed the quality of the more original and substantial work a hundred years ago is complete bunk.
I didn't say that either. I said that we have had 40 more years of scholarship since then and theories have come and gone. Are you suggesting that none of the late C19th and early C20th material has been superceded by more modern scholarship and research? Cumont's Mithraic theory is one example which springs to mind. Cumont's theory was overturned by Ulansey in the late 70s(?) and Ulansey's theory itself has since been abandoned.
I notice that you ignored the question I asked in the last sentence of that post: Has any of this [post 70s scholarship] supported a Saturn theory of any flavour?
This conversation is getting increasingly silly.
That is because you are trying to steer it away from your evidence by introducing straw-men and making false accusations against me.
I do not see any original research from you or any attempt to address the fundamental argument we've presented.
I do not need to present any original research. We are looking at your sources and your evidence to see if there is anything to support your Polar Sun theory. I consider sources and evidence as fundamental to any theory.
For that you only need to show that we've named archetypes that don't exist. And if you can't do that the burden is on you to show that these archetypes would be expected under our present sky.
Another straw-man. Thus far in the PS chapter you have not mentioned archetypes; I am looking at your sources and your evidence; therefore I do not have to consider archetypes.
I am suprised you have not yet invoked 'the comparative method' and my failure to embrace it.
I have challenged your evidence and your theory, the onus is on you to defend your evidence and your theory. Show where a stationary and solitary Saturn is evidenced in your sources. Show where I have failed to mention it.
It is not difficult to see why Ninurta, or Ningirsu, though identified with the planet Saturn in the astronomical texts, came to be confused with the solar orb. “Ningirsu, coming from Eridu, rose in overwhelming splendour. In the land it became day.”144
https://ia801601.us.archive.org/11/item ... 528616.pdf
144 Albright, “The Mouth of the Rivers,” 165-66.
'The third day of the month shown. Ningirsu, coming from Eridu, rose in overwhelming splendor. In the land it became day; the Eninnu rivaled in brilliance the child of Enzu.' Ningirsu is here the sun, offspring of the moon, Samal mar Sin, who ascends each morning from the underworld.
Saturn, as Ningirsu, is “the god who changes darkness into light.”145
https://ia800204.us.archive.org/2/items ... stuoft.pdf
145 Jastrow, The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria , 57.
The temple sacred to him at Girsu was called E-ninnu, and also by a longer name that described the god as the one 'who changes darkness into light,' the reference being to the solar character of the god Nin-ib with whom Nin-girsu is identified.
The priests of Lagash invoke him as “King, Storm, whose splendour is heroic.”146
146 Hildegard Lewy, “Origin and Significance of the Mâgen Dâwîd,” 335. I was unable to find this article but I did find this:
There is no reason to assume that it was used for any purposes other than decorative. Theories interpreting it as a planetary sign of Saturn and connecting it with the holy stone in the pre-Davidic sanctuary in Jerusalem (Hildegard Lewy, in Archiv Orientální, vol. 18, 1950, 330–65) are purely speculative.
[Mâgen Dâwîd is the shield (star) of David. It is also an alchemical symbol]
This unexpected quality of the planet led Jensen to designate Saturn as a symbol of the “eastern sun” or “the sun on the horizon,” though he offered no explanation for the proposed connection.147
147 Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, 115-116, 136ff. Another German language publication (from 1890).
The sunlike aspect of Saturn prevails from the earliest astronomy through medieval mysticism and astrology.“Saturn with its rays sends forth transcendent powers which penetrate into every part of the world,” wrote an Arabic astrologer of the tenth century.148
https://monoskop.org/images/8/82/Raymon ... t_1979.pdf
148 Klibansky, Panofsky, and Saxl, Saturn and Melancholy , 129 (-30).
The spleen occupies the same position in the body as Saturn in the world. For Saturn with its rays sends forth transcendent powers which penetrate into every part of the world. Through these, forms adhere to, and remain in, matter. Even so goes forth from the spleen the power of the black bile, which is cold and dry and it flows with the blood through the veins into every part of the body, and through it the blood coagulates and the parts adhere to one another.
This is alchemy related sympathetic medicine. The quote is attributed to a member of the Pure Brothers (aka Brethren of Purity) who I would guess were Sufis. In Europe this was part of Hermetic Philosophy.
This section of the above book deals with all the planets in a similar vein. Other than the book is primarily about Saturn, the section does not assign any pre-eminence to Saturn.
When the alchemists, inheritors of ancient teachings, spoke of Saturn as “the best sun,”149 it is unlikely that they themselves knew what to do with the idea. But that the tradition was passed down from remote antiquity is both indisputable and crucial.
Alchemists knew exactly what to make of Saturn as the best sun. They knew and know what 'sun' means in the context of alchemy; and they knew and know which sun it is best for what.
Brief but informative:
149 Schwabe, Archetyp und Tierkreis, 492
Another German language publication. Sadly not translated into English, I wouldn't mind reading this.
So another slew of sources and still nothing to indicate Saturn alone or anywhere other than where it is now.