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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:33 am

If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:03 am

Hi Grey Cloud,
I'll try to be brief.. and deal with your points one by one.

Shorter posts, no problems,
I was trying to make it easy by keeping things one dimensional without people having to dive back and forward too many times away from the main argument.

I wasn't trying to learn about the mysteries, only trying to point out they were widespread and influential, Herodotus, Aeschylus, Phillip, Alcibiades, Pythagorus, Jason, etc more or less everyone was involved, and the system was most likely related to seafaring, trade, knowledge, money as well as religion.

All the countries around the Mediterranean had their oracles, temples, and mysteries, they are mentioned in Herodotus, and the Argonautica. Jason goes to the mysteries before his voyage. I was just laying the groundwork for why the Argonautica might have been a trans-Atlantic epic instead of a Black Sea picnic.

At the Pillars of Hercules, the Straits of Gibraltar, there was a temple of Hercules, the Atlas mountains are at the west of the Mediterranean, the Phoenicians controlled the western end of the Mediterranean, they traded out past the straits, the city of Tartessos was outside the straits on the south coast of Portugal, Columbus and other sailors used the trade winds to sail easily across to the Americas, the harder thing was to get back

The Phoenicians most likely discovered the trade winds in the early part of the first millenium BC, at the time of Hiram of Tyre and the trading reported in the bible to Solomon's mines at Ophir, which could have been in the Americas somewhere... Solomon not only grew replete with gold, but got so much silver that it was devalued... sounds uncannily like the Spanish experience with South and Central American gold... if they used the northern route with westerly winds it might explain how they came to discover and trade with the Cornish for the all important ingredient of bronze, tin....

The Phoenicians would build ships with nasty bow spikes to sink rival ships in their western sphere of influence until crushed by Rome in the Punic Wars. The Phoenicians, and early people in the Hebrew tradition, and the the Aztecs, had a nasty habit of killing their children as gifts to their gods, a bad habit which caught on to quite a few 'bad' Kings in the bible history...
The Aztecs had a tradition that bearded white people taught them...

This link is a very good summary of the history of the Pillars of Gibraltar... lots of good quotes... I'll let everyone look for themselves...

" The Phoenicians: There is plenty of evidence that Turdetani established a substantial links with the Phoenicians - a trading people who came from Tyre - the Lebanon of today. According to Strabo the first Phoenician seamen were ordered by their oracles to establish trading towns on what was then considered to be the end of the western side of the known world."

"The story goes that when they arrived they anchored near the Rock and offered sacrifices to the Gods. As these were inauspicious they returned home. But they came back once again and this time managed to sail through the Strait ."

" Their sacrifices - rather anticlimactically - were again inauspicious and they returned home yet again. Their third visit saw them travel through the Strait this time ending up in Gades - or Cadiz - where they are reputed to have made their first proper settlement in Iberia around the 10th century BC."

"All of which begs one particular question. What were all these sailors doing traipsing through the Strait and into what was supposed to have been uncharted territory. The answer of course is that even as early as the 9th century BC this area was anything but uncharted...."

http://gibraltar-intro.blogspot.com.au/ ... olboy.html

GC, you probably know all this stuff already? but those interested in chronology may find it interesting, a lot of people don't realise how far and how pervasive was bronze age seafaring...

The point about Alex: Even Alexander the Great's dad and mum were linked to the mysteries, illustrating an almost humorous thing, that if Alex's ma and pa hadn't drugged out and played up at the mysteries, then we wouldn't have had a Greek empire, we all might be worshipping Mithra and doing whatever they did, wasn't it bull sacrifices, blood and semen?

Did Mithraists only kill the bull? What's with the blindfolds and sacrifices, were they only simulated?

I've read quite a bit about yoga... but...
mmm sorry, i'm straying off topic again.. :-)

Fomenko: didn't he say there was no history before 1000 AD?
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:37 pm

MA Rinella - Pharmakon, Plato Drug Culture and Identity in Ancient Athens
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=P ... EQgQMIGDAA
I have this but haven't got around to reading it yet.

And then there is this:
THE NEW ZEALAND EXPLOSION OF 1178 AD WHICH TILTED THE EARTH
https://www.scribd.com/document/2582053 ... -the-Earth
Ditto.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:45 pm

Hi Grey Cloud,
In my opinion that devasting fire in the South Island approx five hundred years ago is better explained by the Mahuika crater 250 km south of the island... the local Maori 'legend' calls it 'the fires of Tamatea'
criticised by Goff and others who didn't appear to 'get' that the Maori legend of Tamatea as a fire god, son of the sky god, was an earlier legend possibly even imported from the Tahiti area, so the South Island Maori would naturally associate this dramatic fiery event to Tamatea...

about 500 years ago, a bolide, comet or meteorite left a approx 20 km crater on the sea floor
(compared to the 1.4 km crater in Arizona, this would have been a devastating and memorable event to the survivors)

Maori 'legend':
"The Moa disappeared after the coming of Tamaatea who set
fire to the land. The fire was not the same as our fire but embers
sent by Rongi [the sky] (Hill 1913, p. 331)"

"On the South Island of New Zealand, the Mahuika Comet impact would have been a dramatic event.
Within 50 km of the southern coastline, it would have appeared as a fireball ten times larger than the sun, blown over 90% of the tree cover, and ignited grass and trees (Marcus et al. 2005).
However, these effects would have ceased within 100 km of the coast. "

"Steel & Snow (1992) believe that local Maori legends and place names refer to
a comet event such as this one. They base their hypothesis on the legend of the Fires of Tamaatea (or Tamatea). Local ethnographic evidence is best chronicled in the Southland and Otago regions, centred on the town of Tapanui (Fig. 1b). Here there appears to be evidence for an airburst that flattened trees in a manner similar to the Tunguska event. The remains of fallen trees are aligned radially away from the point of explosion out to a distance of 40–80 km. "

"Local Maori legends in the area tell about the falling of the skies, raging winds, and mysterious and massive firestorms from space. Tapanui, itself, translates as ‘the big explosion,’ while Waipahi means ‘the place of the exploding fire’. Place names such as Waitepeka, Kaka Point, and Oweka contain the southern Maori word ka, which means fire. The local Maori also attribute the demise of the Moas, as well as their culture, to an extraterrestrial event. The extinction of the Moa is remembered as Manu Whakatau, ‘the bird felled by strange fire’"

I'm not much convinced by UFO's until I see one,
if this was a UFO, I think you could say the driver 'totalled' it... :-)

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cg ... =scipapers
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:52 pm

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:40 pm

The Maori, like the Saxons in England, had an attachment to genealogies, and were recorded by European ethnologists as commonly being able to recite involved genealogical sequences, linking each person to relatives, past events, even to the canoe on which their ancestor came to New Zealand, even including the captain and navigator of that canoe

This skill is a pre-writing way of preserving records, not always consistent, but consistent in a broad sense... one tribe might add a few generations and another might forget a generation or two.. but from these oral chanted genealogies a fairly good chronology can be derived...

So the event of the 'fires of Tamatea' can be placed on a scale where the Maori yardstick chronologically-speaking is calculated by generations... so if this was a real event linked to a Korean comet sighting, then it is a good example of how oral histories can be linked to real events, and can then be folded back to better cross-reference the genealogies to dates.

There was a comet reported in Korea with a specific date in 1492 which could have hit the earth at that time, it sort of disappeared off the radar... the sighting was translated into Japanese and is a strong candidate to identify the fiery embers that rained down on the South Island of New
Zealand, so there is double evidence here.. first to pin down a date for the cosmic impact, and second to verify the accuracy of the Maori and place a fixed point in the chronology of their oral tradition

Mahuika Impact crater with Arizona impact crater.jpg

The impact produced mega-tsunamis that have left physical evidence on the coasts of Southern New Zealand and the eastern coast of Australia, and also left an 'mark' in the legends and stories of the Australian Aboriginals and New Zealand Maoris

http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cg ... =scipapers
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:06 pm

If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:25 pm

G'day Grey Cloud,
I found this article which discusses Medical Historians who are reading Homer 'not literally' in the description of the sailors turning into pigs, but reading that part of the story as a description of what the men thought... ie an altered state of consciousness... or it could also have been a metaphorical description of their behaviour, since if Circe's drug was jimson weed, it makes you shit yourself... a common experience of drug users, or people poisoned accidentally or intentionally by drugs, you would have heard of 'spiked' drinks... another modern echo of the story of Circe...

"Medical historians have speculated that the transformation to pigs was not intended literally but refers to anticholinergic intoxication. Symptoms include amnesia, hallucinations, and delusions. The description of "moly" fits the snowdrop, a flower of the region that contains galantamine, which is an anticholinesterase and can therefore counteract anticholinergics."

so it more or less confirms the snowdrop identification as the antidote to jimson weed and the identification of these two plants in the Circe episode, you might need to know this if anyone tries to take advantage of you through adding some Deadly Nightshade to your drink... :-)

So what about this deadly nightshade, Datura stramonium?

It's all over the America's, it's known and used in Indian druggie mysteries,
It's known in Ethiopia, (see previous post about the origin of Dionysus into Greece, some thought the east, some thought Ethiopia... I thought the Americas)

it is thought to have originated in ***Mexico :

"Across the Americas, other indigenous peoples such as the Algonquin, Navajo, Cherokee, Luiseño and the indigenous peoples of Marie-Galante also used this plant in sacred ceremonies for its hallucinogenic properties. In Ethiopia, some students and debtrawoch (lay priests), use D. stramonium to "open the mind" to be more receptive to learning, and creative and imaginative thinking."

It causes memory loss, and incontinence ie 'pigs', just like in the Odyssey Circe story:

"...in the United States, the plant is called "jimsonweed", or more rarely "Jamestown weed"; it got this name from the town of Jamestown, Virginia, where British soldiers consumed it while attempting to suppress Bacon's Rebellion. They spent 11 days in ***altered mental states:"

" The James-Town Weed (which resembles the Thorny Apple of ***Peru, and I take to be the plant so call'd) is supposed to be one of the greatest coolers in the world. This being an early plant, was gather'd very young for a boil'd salad, by some of the soldiers sent thither to quell the rebellion of Bacon (1676); and some of them ate plentifully of it, the effect of which was a very pleasant comedy, for they turned natural fools upon it for several days: one would blow up a feather in the air; another would dart straws at it with much fury; and another, stark naked, was sitting up in a corner like a monkey, grinning and making mows [grimaces] at them; a fourth would fondly kiss and paw his companions, and sneer in their faces with a countenance more antic than any in a Dutch droll."

They shat themselves, behaved like pigs, and had to be 'penned' just like the Circe story...

" In this frantic condition they were confined, lest they should, in their folly, destroy themselves—though it was observed that all their actions were full of innocence and good nature. Indeed, they were not very cleanly; for they would have wallowed in their own excrements, if they had not been prevented. A thousand such simple tricks they played, and after eleven days returned themselves again, not remembering anything that had passed.
— Robert Beverley, Jr., The History and Present State of Virginia, Book II: Of the Natural Product and Conveniencies in Its Unimprov'd State, Before the English Went Thither, 1705

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium

In the Circe episode, Homer says she wanted them to lose their memory of their native land
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:52 pm

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:31 pm

Allyn,
This is not what Fomenko was talking about. Fomenko is saying there was a pre-meditated, comprehensive and global re-writing of history - history as both the past and the discipline (along with all the associated disciplines such as archaeology, numismatics etc).
What Yadin did was to put a bit of 'spin' on an otherwise minor incident in history. The revolt and ensuing siege still took place when and where everyone thought it did pre-Yadin and where and when it did post-Yadin.
All scholarly disciplines are ongoing dialogues. Scholars constantly agree and disagree about virtually every subject. They always have and probably always will - it is part and parcel of human nature. That a scholar or group of scholars may go too far in their interpretation of a given body of evidence is well known and well documented. Note that Yadin's book was published in 1966 and Kline's in 2017 - 50 years later - new eyes + new evidence = new take on the subject.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:26 pm

Look at the pdf of Book One, first edition, Chapter 7, part 5.4, page 469, or the second edition on Google Books, page 427. This is a similar example to the Masada article.
page 427 5.4.jpg
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:42 pm

Allyn,
Sorry but I don't see how this is anything like the Massada article.
Fomenko is just making assertions without any credible sources or facts.
The Turks are not being blamed for all (or even most?) of the destruction of Greek buildings etc. Earthquakes and the ravages of time are major culprits.
His photos clearly show the damage from shot and shell. (And I've seen those photos elsewhere in better quality).
He puts [?] after a quote from a British writer saying that the Turks smashed some of the Greek marbles to use as ammunition. It was not unheard of even at that time to use stone cannonballs.
The reason the Ottoman tower and the temple of Nike use the same stone is that it has been recycled, i.e. the Turks used the bricks that were there rather than transport thousands of bricks from elsewhere.
The tower is not Doric and the Greeks would not have put a rectangular tower next to the Parthenon for aesthetic reasons. Would Christians or Muslims construct and edifice covered in pagan idols? (I couldn't figure out from Fomeko who was supposed to have built it).
One could also argue that Islamic architecture favours arches rather than columns and lintels. (The former are stronger and allow a greater span and thus a larger open area).
The original Parthenon was destroyed by the Persians when they captured Athens. This is well documented in ancient texts (or are they all forged too?) and has been found by archaelogists.
The story of the rebuilding of the Parthenon is also well documented in the ancient texts. What it cost; where the money came from; how long it took to build; who the architects/craftsmen were; etc. Is that all forged too?

The only common denominator between Fomenko and Yadin is nationalism.
Russia qua Russia has no history prior to the mediaeval period. Western Europe, S. Europe, the ME, Iran, India and round to China all have history going back thousands of years. Fomenko cannot produce a Russian ancient history out of a hat so he tries to bring everyone else to the same starting position as Russia.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:20 pm

Josephus was not free to say anything he liked, but was a Jewish nationalist descended from the Jewish High-priestly Theocratic line, living and writing under Roman 'protection', the Romans had crushed a major revolt in his home country.

"Critics of Josephus regard him as an untrustworthy propagandist for the Flavian dynasty, as evidenced by his treatment of Titus' actions at the siege of Jerusalem. His descriptions of Titus saving an entire legion by single-handedly fighting back crowds of armed Judeans are laughable. But modern readings of Josephus treat these embarrassing passages with more sympathy. Josephus did not have freedom of speech: he was living under a dictatorship, and over the past century we have had ample understanding of what that does to a writer."

"The Temple was destroyed despite Titus' order that it be preserved, and despite his attempts to put out the fire once it started. So writes Josephus, and so this is how Titus wished to be seen. But a later historian, Sulpicius Severus (apparently based on Tacitus' lost history) says the opposite -- that Titus ordered the destruction."

This is no big deal to a student of history, it's not hard to see that there were contradictory causes and/or motives given for events by interested parties.. but the essential events are still confirmed... like the destruction of the Jewish temple, and the massacre/suicide at Masada... today the graphic evidence at Masada is that Josephus was substantially accurate, to a standard probably seldom seen in modern war reporting.
masada1.jpg

fortress-masada-travel-50k.jpg

The criticism that the Romans would not have suspended their attack at nightfall is seen to be a sensible decision, the defenders had no-where to to go, the top of that mountain fortress is quite large, with many buildings and presumably had half a thousand desperate men still to overcome in building to building fighting... the text of Josephus describes how five women came out from hiding, two adults and five children, so the exact sequence of decisions made by the involved parties is probably always going to be open to speculation, maybe the women didn't want to commit suicide, maybe the Romans slaughtered all the others and then made up the suicide story to justify their actions, the fact of the seige, the dates quoted by Josephus, the location of Masada, the visible remains of the Roman seige-ramp and stone walled military camp, and the other events of the 'Jewish War' show that Josephus is largely reliable, but not 100%.

When pig bones are found, were the pork-eaters Jewish?
I would guess it depends how hungry they were... maybe the bones were from the conqering Romans having a victory meal after their hard work...
who knows?

It's not a big deal to a real historian without an axe to grind...

Josephus in his writings sometimes gives exact dates:
"Where Josephus explicitly give dates of the Hebrew calendar (or the Macedonian equivalent), they are cited here; [Dec 69 AD to May 1st, 70 AD]"
(then follows a table of events that happened between those dates....)

http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/war ... 7Fall.html
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:38 am

Look at the pdf of Book One, first edition, Chapter 7, part 5.0, page 457, or the second edition on Google Books, page 415. This goes into more detail about the origin of the Parthenon as the Temple of Mary. That may help clarify what you read in part 5.4.
5.0.jpg
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:46 am

Allyn,
More rubbish.
You once again fail to address any of my objections, presumably because you cannot, and instead produce another piece of Fomenko's insanity.

The Gregorovius book cited by Fomenko dates back to 1889! Gregorovius was a historian of Mediaeval Rome. This is typical Fomenko. Where does he take on modern scholarship; where are his references to primary sources? Trawl through his bibliography and produce for me a list of his primary sources. And while you are at it, look at the published dates for his secondary and tertiary sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Gregorovius Hardly a producer of a 'fundamental work' as Fomenko calls it.

His twaddle about the Parthenon and Athene is full of shit it is difficult to know where to start.
If Athene is just another name for the Virgin Mary then why do the early church fathers, e.g. the heresiologists, attack her and the other pagan dieties? Why, as I asked in my previous post, would Christians decorate 'their' temple with pagan dieties and scenes from 'ancient' pagan history? Why are the exterior and interior of the Parthenon not laid out like virtually every other Christian church?
Athenaia is a female Athenian. Parthenos is Greek for virgin or maid.

The decline of Athens is well documented - the Peloponessian War, the Macedonian conquest, the Roman conquest, the Muslim conquest.

I await your response to my points.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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