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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:20 am

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby moses » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:23 pm

First we need to decide whether the similarity of myth world-wide is due to some spiritual-type perception, or due to an advanced ancient communication. This will tell us much about the ancients and their myths. Like was there a language that was spread world-wide.

Then the next part is whether the myth were used to tell significant teachings and used for navigation. Rather than there being significant events in the sky that initiate the myths. And then whether the myths were modified by such sky events.

So was there an ancient advanced civilization, and a different configuration of planets, and so a cataclysmic period that affected humanity severely. These are the issues.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:46 am

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:13 am

If the Milky Way is included in the ancient world picture and mythical telling, it of course is important to know of these cultural tellings and their connected symbols.

Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way_%28mythology%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... _Milky_Way

The very looks of the Milky Way seems to play a role in the cultural stories, so the symbols of the Milky Way of course also plays a significant role in the cultural myths.
Ouroboros.png
The Ouroboros

The Milky Way (River) contours can be observed running all around the Earth, which is why it is called the "Midgaard Serpent" in the Norse Mythology, where Midgaard is the home for humans. I´ll say this Serpent symbol is the primary one in the global Stories of Creation. This Serpent symbol is known in many other cultures as well, but of course the Milky Way contours are given many other names.
Milky Way Contours.jpg
Southern and northern hemipheres MW-Contours

The next primary symbols derives from the division of the Earth hemisphere, where the southern and northern hemisphere Milky Way contours gives origin to the Great Mother Goddess on the southern hemisphere and the Great Father God on the northern hemsiphere.
Southern.04.jpg
Southern hemisphere MW-Contours
Southern.04.jpg (21.63 KiB) Viewed 12257 times

The Great Mother Goddess on the southern hemisphere where the Milky Way center is located in the star constellation of Sagittarius. If imaging this contour as a woman, the MW-center is located in the area of her womb, giving origin to the mytheme of "The Cosmic Womb" and "heavenly mother of the creation"
Northern Hemisphere.04.jpg
Northern hemisphere MW-Contours
Northern Hemisphere.04.jpg (22.42 KiB) Viewed 12257 times

The Great Father God resides in the northern hemisphere as the all seeing and omnipresent god because of the seemingly revolving motion which also gives the mytho-cosmological attribute of "Father Time".

Summary:
The Central Light in the Milky Way is the first mythical symbol of creation.
The Milky Way bulged center represents the "Cosmic Mound or Mountain", and the "Cosmic Womb mytheme".
The Serpent is the third symbol of creation.
The Earth divided hemispheres and Milky Way contours gives origin for the 4.th and 5.th symbol of creation.

These 5 basic symbols should in some way or another fit into all cultural tellings of the creation.

PS: When working with stories of creation and ancient deities, one has to remember that several cultural overlays of different deities occurs in many cultures. By focusing only on the mytho-cosmological images, one can avoid the confusion from most of these cultural layers.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:20 am

Subject: The Cosmic Mountain

Many scholars and authors locate the myth of the Cosmic Mound to geographical mountains as noted here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_mountains - but when thinking of the "as above, so below" sentence, these geographic mountains represents the heavenly mound or mount.

An example of the Cosmic Mountain, or Cosmic Mound, could be Mount Meru - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Meru#Hindu_legends

Quote:
“Mount Meru of Hindu traditions has clearly mythical (Edit. and cosmical) aspects, being described as 84,000 Yojan high (which is around 1,082,000 km (672,000 mi), or 85 times the Earths's diameter), and having the Sun along with all its planets in the Solar System revolve around it as one unit”.

Comment: Disregarded the accuracy of given numbers, the text speaks without any doubts about the Milky Way central bulge around which the Solar System orbits.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby seasmith » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:40 am

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:58 am

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:06 am

Subject: Mythical Serpents

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28symbolism%29
Quote:
”The serpent, or snake, is one of the oldest and most widespread mythological symbols. The word is derived from Latin serpens, a crawling animal or snake. Snakes have been associated with some of the oldest rituals known to humankind and represent dual expression of good and evil.

In some cultures, snakes were fertility symbols. For example, the Hopi people of North America performed an annual snake dance to celebrate the union of Snake Youth (a Sky spirit) and Snake Girl (an Underworld spirit) and to renew the fertility of Nature. During the dance, live snakes were handled and at the end of the dance the snakes were released into the fields to guarantee good crops. "The snake dance is a prayer to the spirits of the clouds, the thunder and the lightning, that the rain may fall on the growing crops.” In other cultures, snakes symbolized the umbilical cord, joining all humans to Mother Earth. The Great Goddess often had snakes as her familiars—sometimes twining around her sacred staff, as in ancient Crete—and they were worshiped as guardians of her mysteries of birth and regeneration.

My comment:
The “good and evil”-stuff is interpreted very dualistic by historic and modern scholars, but when thinking of the story of creation, this sentence should be interpreted more in the context of “what happens when we follow the natural and creative forces – or not”.

Category of Legendary Serpents - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... y_serpents
Snakes in Mythology - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_in_mythology
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:51 am

Subject: The Father God

I have earlier made a post about the Mother Goddess by the example of goddess Hathor above. Here, the Father God is exemplified by the Roman God, Saturn or Saturnus. Link from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_%28mythology%29

Quote:
“Saturn (Latin: Saturnus Latin pronunciation: [saˈtʊr.nʊs]) is a god in ancient Roman religion, and a character in myth. Saturn is a complex figure because of his multiple associations and long history. He was the first god of the Capitol, known since the most ancient times as Saturnius Mons”.

My comment:
Comparative Mythologist and other scholars have great difficulties with placing the prime deities. Mostly, these prime deities are in different encyclopedia and numerous books ascribed to the Sun, Moon and to the Solar System planets, whereby all kind of contradictive and contraintuitive interpretations and explanations of both the myths and their astronomical connections takes place.

An example of the problems of interpreting the ancient myths:

“Saturn the Ancient Sun God”, by David Talbott. Link -
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/7285.html

Quote:
“Indeed, the consistency with which early astronomies identity Saturn as the former creator-king is extraordinary. The Zoroastrians of ancient Persia knew Saturn as the heaven-sustaining Zurvãn, "the King and Lord of the Long Dominion." The Iranian god-king Yima, a transcript of the Hindu Yama, founder of the Golden Age, was also linked to Saturn. The Chinese mythical emperor Huang-ti, first in a great dynasty of kings and mythical founder of the Taoist religion, was identified astronomically as the planet Saturn. Even the Tahitians recall of the god Fetu-tea, the planet Saturn, that he "was the King."

My comment: Of course can the prime male deity of creation in all cultures be compared as the author does very excellent here. But then the author concludes all these cultural and superior deities of creation to be connected with planet Saturn, which hardly and logically cannot be the fact. Planet Saturn is obviously not the prime deity of creation who creates everything in the ancient known world if taking the mythical context seriously.

Another example:

Quotes from “THE MYTH OF THE CENTRAL SUN”, By David Talbott. Link:
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/8709.html

# 1: “Nothing misrepresents original meanings more profoundly than the common translations of Egyptian texts relative to the daily cycle of the sun god. In the language of the Egyptians themselves, the god does not rise and set, but grows bright and dims. He shines brightly, then his light recedes”.
And:
# 2. “What, then, of the famous Assyrian and Babylonian god Shamash, the sun god whom we now recognize as Saturn? A remarkable fact is that Shamash "comes forth" (shines) and "goes in" (declines, diminishes) at one spot, the "firm," "stable" or motionless station of supreme "rest".

My comments to #1-2:
This is not a "misrepresenting of the original meaning". This is a misconception derived from the lack of astronomical observation routines by the interpretors. Several issues are wrong:

1. It is not a myth of "the central sun" since it deals with the central celestial pole.

2. It is not a "sun-god", because the mythical figure in question does not rise and set as the Sun.

3. It is not planet Saturn assumingly hovering close over the celestial pole, since the myths speaks specifically of a male gendered god figure in itself, which periodically appears and disappears.

4. It doesn´t deal with the "daily cycle of the Sun", but with the annual cycle of the Earth´s orbit around the Sun.

5. It deals with a mythical and celestial male looking gendered figure, which is moving around a stationary celestial location where it grows lighter and dimmer.

All these mythological/astronomical/cosmological confusions takes place all over, including in different encyclopedia´s where scholars just copy and repeat what former authors didn´t observe for themselves in the Sky.

The Mythological and Astronomical explanation of the mytho-cosmological Saturn/Saturnus God is:

As the Earth orbits the Sun, the celestial imagery of the night changes throughout the seasons because of the changing altitude of the Sun. All celestial starry objects grows dimmer and disappears as the Sun ascends, and for some 3-4 months in the summer season, the stars, the constellations and the contours of the Milky Way disappears until the Sun descends later in the season.

This astronomical fact is embedded in the cosmological myths and it gives origin to the global mytheme of "The Departure and Return of the Celestial Deities". This explanation fits logically with the mythical description in the quotes above.

Just by taking the very mythical context of the Saturnus God for granted, anyone who goes out in the night and watch the celestial imagery at a favorable season, can conclude which celestial figure we are talking about: The crescent Milky Way male looking figure which is revolving around the celestial pole, growing dimmer and lighter as the Sun ascends and descends throughout the year.
Northern Hemisphere.04.jpg
The observable Father God Archetype in the Sky.
Northern Hemisphere.04.jpg (22.42 KiB) Viewed 12230 times

Star Atlas. The primary God Saturnus/Shamash etc. etc. revolving at his celestial station (the celestial pole) growing lighter and dimmer as the Sun ascends and descends in the annual cycle.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby kevin » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:06 pm

Norman,
Excellent thread.
What if?
The tales are not of the physical, but of the none physical, which enables the physical to be.....or not to be.
Kevin
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby kevin » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:15 pm

Serpents,
I am at one with the serpents, via the palms of my hands.
They appreciate the recognition.
They are often termed as plasma.
Kevin
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:22 pm

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:25 pm

Subject: Mythical Giants & Giantesses

From - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28mythology%29
Quote:
"Giant is the English word (coined 1297) commonly used for the monsters of human appearance but prodigious size and strength common in the mythology and legends of many different cultures. The word giant was derived from the gigantes (Greek: γίγαντες) of Greek mythology.

In various Indo-European mythologies, gigantic peoples are featured as primeval creatures associated with chaos and the wild nature, and they are frequently in conflict with the gods, be they Olympian, Celtic, Hindu or Norse. Giants also often play similar roles in the mythologies and folklore of other, non Indo-European peoples, such as in the Nartian traditions.

There are also accounts of giants in the Old Testament, most famously Goliath, Og King of Bashan, the Nephilim, the Anakim, and the giants of Egypt mentioned in 1 Chronicles 11:23. Attributed to them are extraordinary strength and physical proportions.

Giants in Norse Mythology - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28 ... _mythology

“In Norse mythology, the Jotun (jötnar in Old Norse, a cognate with ettin) are often opposed to the gods. While often translated as "giants", most are described as being roughly human sized. Some are portrayed as huge, such as frost giants (hrímþursar), fire giants (eldjötnar), and mountain giants (bergrisar).

The giants are the origin of most of various monsters in Norse mythology (e.g. the Fenrisulfr), and in the eventual battle of Ragnarök the giants will storm Asgard and fight them, until the world is destroyed. Even so, the gods themselves were related to the giants by many marriages, and there are giants such as Ægir, Loki, Mímir, and Skaði, who bear little difference in status to them.

The Chief God Odin was the great-grand son of the Giant Ymir. Norse mythology also holds that the entire world of men was created from the flesh of Ymir, a giant of cosmic proportions, which name is considered by some to share a root with the name Yama of Indo-Iranian mythology”.

My comment:
The “Giant” term covers both “a large structure” as well as “huge powers” and the mythical reference to “giants who fights with deities” very much describes how different natural elements interacts and makes all kinds of changes in the creation, as in the myth of Ragnarok which, IMO is a general description of the changing evolution itself.

The giant elementary forces are also at action before the creation of the ancient known part of the Universe, where gigantic clouds of cold and moist meets warm and dry “rivers” in heaven, which floats into the opening of Ginnungagap, the center of the local creation where everything is created.

Quote:
“In the beginning, there were two regions: Muspellsheim in the south, full of fire, light and heat; and Niflheim in the north, full of arctic waters, mists, and cold. Between them stretched the yawning emptiness of Ginnungagap, and into it poured sparks and smoke from the south and layers of rime-ice and glacial rivers from the north. As heat and cold met in Ginnungagap, a living Jötunn, (Edit: Giant) Ymir, appeared in the melting ice. From his left armpit, the first man and woman were born. From his legs, the frost jötnar were born, making Ymir the progenitor of the jötnar.

Most sources identify Ymir's oldest son as Thrudgelmir, who bore Ymir's grandson, Bergelmir. The other jötnar are usually unnamed. Ymir fed on the milk of the cow Auðhumla. She licked the blocks of salty ice, releasing Búri.

My comment:
As in other cultural tellings of the creation, the Norse myth also have this celestial cow as the creator deity. The cow symbol fits very well with the white river of the Milky Way, also as an allegory of nourishment of life itself, which also is understandable when thinking of the contents and attributes of the Great Mother Goddess.

Summary: The Giants represents both the cosmic elementary forces as well as the largest celestial structures of the Milky Way contours. Hence, we can read of both male and female deities who are created by giant primeval forces of creation and look at the giant crescent and revolving Milky Way figures of both hemispheres in the night Sky.

Links:
Mythical Giants - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28mythology%29
List of Mythical Giants - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... d_folklore
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby moses » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:44 pm

Clearly nobody has read Mathisen. He has blogs and fairly cheap books. Essential reading really:
http://mathisencorollary.blogspot.com.a ... -2014.html
http://mathisencorollary.blogspot.com.a ... honey.html

These are on the world cosmic mountain, but if you are into the Greek myths he offers a unique understanding. I am only just beginning but I see that much of his needs to be read to take it in. Very near to what Norman and Grey Cloud are on about, just in depth.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:13 pm

Hi MO,
Thanks for the linkings to Mathisen.

As far as I can understand and have read, he especially is working with the myths of the star constellations, which of course also is a important part of the ancient known world.

All the stars and star constellations and "other stuff" on both hemispheres, can be said to be "mytho-cosmological sons and daughters" of the central deity/force of the Milky Way.
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