Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Roshi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:00 am

Lloyd wrote:We've discussed quite a few of those in this thread, but not all. What conclusions have you been able to draw from all of your evidence? It seems more likely that tidal forces from a close approach of a large body caused the Flood, as I noted in a previous post.

Conclusion: there existed and "antedeluvian" civilization. This civilization was responsible for the pyramids and all other strange ruins. It was lead by red haired "gods" - extraterestrials. People all over the world tried to imitate them by elongating the skulls of children. Look at the representation of ancient pharaohs and their long heads. This civilization was global. Check the stories about cocaine found in Egyptian mummies, and the red hair of Ramses:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II
Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[68] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris

Also see the stories about "sons of god" that came to earth and married human women, who then gave birth to "giants".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28mythology%29
Genesis 6:4-5 tells of the Nephilim before and after the Flood. According to Genesis 7:23, the Nephilim were destroyed in the Flood, but Nephilim are reported after the Flood


Then - between 15000 and 12000 years ago, there was this giant flood. Caused by a shift in Earth's orbit, or as you say - a giant body passing by, or who knows what else. I agree with the electric discharge that shaped the features of Mars, maybe that's when a planet (Phaeton?) passed near Mars and was destroyed, and caused chaos on Earth. This is my version of history.
I don't need a history of electrical discharges between Earth and another body to believe or validate the electric Universe theory, maybe it happened maybe not, I'm not sure. But I am almost certain about a flood. The "Lightning Scarred Planet" documentary about Mars convinced me that it happened on Mars, I agree these things can happen, but I am not sure it happened on Earth:

"This planet, with all its appalling immensity, is to electric currents virtually no more than a small metal ball." - Tesla


Also an interesting object to check is the mini-planet Sedna, with it's orbit of ~ 12000 years, and the "myths" of ancient nuclear wars in India, maybe these were wars between various "gods", that happened before the flood.

GaryN - that giant serpent that caused nothing to grow where he was, and caused creatures to die when approaching it, could be a remnant of those ancient nuclear wars. Some radiation readings in that place would be interesting.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Michael Anteski » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:43 am

I couldn't resist replying to Roshi's citing of the "Phaeton" legend.

Ovid, a Latin poet, gives an excellent account of the Phaethon myth in his "The Metamorphoses" (Book XI, fable 1.)Ovid's story begins with a discourse by Helios, a sun god. Phaethon has just asked his father's permission to drive one of his chariots "just for one day." At first Helios refuses, then hesitates, expressing misgivings over allowing a boy to take "the reins" even for one day. The heavenly road is full of pitfalls and "requires a sure command of the horses." (One has to consider that "horses" here represent gravitational forces being manipulated by sky gods.) -But Phaethon is determined to undertake it. So, Helios finally assenting, the doors of Aurora are are opened, the Hours yoke the horses, thew reins are handed to Phaethon, and a fateful turn is begun.

His father warns Phaethon not to drive "too high or thou wilt set on fire (cosmic areas?) nor too low or the earth will be consumed."

But (Phaethon's strength in commanding the reins) was light, and such as the horses of the sun could not feel; and the yoke was deficient of its wonted weight..the steeds leave the beaten track and run not in the order they did before..."

Anyone interested can look up Ovid's account, with its obvious symbolisms between myths of gods and cosmic forces. in connection with an ancient cataclysm involving earth.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Roshi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 am

Michael Anteski wrote:
Anyone interested can look up Ovid's account, with its obvious symbolisms between myths of gods and cosmic forces. in connection with an ancient cataclysm involving earth.


Most interesting!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon
Phaethon was adamant. When the day came, the fierce horses that drew the chariot felt that it was empty because of the lack of the sun-god's weight, and went out of control. Terrified, Phaethon dropped the reins. The horses veered from their course, scorching the earth, burning the vegetation, bringing the blood of the Ethiopians to the surface of their skin and so turning it black, changing much of Africa into desert, drying up rivers and lakes and shrinking the sea. Earth cried out to Jupiter, who was forced to intervene by striking Phaethon with a lightning bolt. Like a falling star, Phaethon plunged blazing into the river Eridanos.


I was referring to the hypotetical planet Phaeton, did not even knew about the Greek legend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaeton_% ... _planet%29
According to the discredited Titius–Bode law, a planet was believed to exist between Mars and Jupiter. After observing the discoveries made by the German astronomer and professor Johann Daniel Titius (1729-1796), Johann Elert Bode himself urged a search for the fifth planet. When Ceres, the largest of the asteroids in the asteroid belt (now considered a dwarf planet), was serendipitously discovered in 1801 by the Italian Giuseppe Piazzi and found to match the predicted position of the fifth planet, many believed it was the missing planet. However, in 1802 astronomer Heinrich Wilhelm Matthäus Olbers discovered and named another object in the same general orbit as Ceres, the asteroid Pallas.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:40 am

Lloyd wrote:Gordon is the one who suggested that nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata worldwide were deposited all at once during the Great Flood, and that suggests that where there is no sedimentary rock on continents, there was possibly no major flooding, which means many people and animals may have survived in those locations, which are shown in the map below in the areas of Precambrian surface rock.
Great Flood Deposits
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/images/ ... _belts.JPG

No, I say that the frequently fossiliferous Cambrian and "above" sequences were deposited during the flood, in at least three major stages marked by the PreCambrian/Cambrian ["explosion"], PT [Permian/Triassic extinctions] and KT [Cretaceous/Tertiary extinctions] stratigraphic boundaries found globally. Add the Pliocene/Pleistocene groupings as a 4th major ending event [the Ice Epoch].
No, I would not say that there was no major flooding where there are no sedimentary rocks, nor that possibly living things survived on land not flooded. I do hold that some sea creatures survived the flood, as there is no indication in the biblical record of Noah being commissioned to save them; and in geology we find that fossilized sea creatures are found generally buried in strata beneath the fossils of land creatures -- this "first burial" trend would be expected since their habitats are "lower" than those of the land creatures. Standard model "shallow sea" explanations are to me indicators of creatures washed over onto and buried on the ancient continental shelves or lowland areas, which could be nearly anywhere on the ancient supercontinent before the formation of the boundary [brake] mountain ranges.
The Precambrian rock areas may have not been flooded or were washed clean as they were being uplifted toward the end of the flood into the exposed areas they now are found. There are no indicators from fossil evidence or otherwise that these "shield" regions were areas where anything survived the cataclysm; however the lack of fossils and the metamorphic/intrusive morphologies of Precambrian sequences in general do place them as being formed before the deluge, possibly primordial, or as vestiges of the original uplift of the continents above the primordial sea.
Other areas where there are no [exposed] sedimentary sequences are regions of "recent" [last stages of flood and post-flood] volcanism, so these would be an "afterthought" of the cataclysm, although the causation of these later events was definitely put in place by the flood apparati. Hence volcanic arcs are found adjacent/parallel to boundary ranges and trenches, etc. and/or other stressed areas of the continents.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:19 pm

Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:03 pm

Roshi,
Re the cranial elongation. Here in the UK we have a similar tradition today. Upon election all politicians have the complete contents of their skull removed.


Modernday conehead:


1453134631262.jpg
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Roshi » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:52 am

The artificial cranial deformation is spread all over the world, and it's 10 times more strange than the fact that there are similar flood stories all over the world. This not a simple thing to do, it can't just be listened to and passed on like a myth about the flood.

"Hey Mr. Gaul, I heard the Mayans artificially elongate their heads!"
"They sure do. I'll tie the head of my child so it elongates, so he will have a higher status!"

This practice existed in Europe, Africa, the Americas, Oceania. It's source cannot be just an idea everyone got at random - or the slow spreading of the custom from tribe to tribe - that is crazy. Tribes don't just copy customs like that (and this is a radical custom). It's origin must be ancient, in the antediluvian world, that was a global civilization, connected by ships (or flying ships) - and ruled by "gods" with long heads. As we see some pharaohs represented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificia ... eformation
https://hiddenincatours.com/elongated-s ... eir-world/

Mainstream "explanations":
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141013 ... ens-skulls
Skull modification might have been done with the aim of making males look more masculine

Head shaping seems to be a human cultural achievement rooting in the belief in an 'unfinished self


In the beginning the practice had a certain meaning. But people are stupid, they easily create a religion from anything (as we see in science today), and in time nothing remains, just "we elongate the skulls of our children because that's what grandpa did, and it's good!".

http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/ritualcat.html
When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:04 pm

the Hed¡jet:

A rock-solid clue to the origin of tall head, before coming south to pharaonize Egypt-


Narmerhead.jpg
click to enlarge


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... g_side.jpg
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:03 pm

@GreyCloud and seasmith
"Here in the UK we have a similar tradition today. Upon election all politicians have the complete contents of their skull removed."

Not to mention the heir to the throne. God save the queen! (;

PS.

I can't see where Roshi has violated any rules of comparative mythology. I don't think anyone can find any flaw in his methodology without incriminating himself. He starts with his theory/assumption, states it clearly, finds evidence in the Bible, uses a smattering of Greek and Roman historians or poets, and proceeds to build his case using cultural practices which lack texts. Unless I have missed something, this is standard practice in a type of study which has no rational limitations.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:22 pm

http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/ritualcat.html
When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.

From the same webpage:
"This story is more about the failings of one man than rituals, cats or scholars."
It is a Zen story so it should be meditated upon (no cat required) not read literally.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:25 pm

Inre: by GaryN » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:18 pm

Thank you for that post about the Salish many headed serpent, and the picture of the surrounding rocks. That was inspiring.

I have been reading many Indian legends for the past several years. To be honest, I could have provided Grey Cloud with many native American flood stories. I could have offered them from the NW, the SW, the Mountain states, the Great Plains, the South, the Midwest, and New England--which would have covered more than a local tsunami prone area, obviously.

But I don't like reading myths and using them to prove a point. I try to study each tribe (there are usually about 8+ per state) and then read all of the myths for that tribe. My kids and I do this for some of their Social Studies. I want them to learn about people in their own words, not in academic descriptions -- which can make you fall off your chair from boredom, and choke to death on scholastic dust. But this takes a lot of time. A lot. I was very encouraged in all of this by the thunderbolts work, because I suddenly had a way of understanding the electrical themes describing how local landscapes were formed. Once this door was opened, I found that the legends are beautiful, charming, and very funny. So that got me started.

The legends usually talk about how the individual tribe first came to be in their land. There is usually a flood and a few stories of how animals got their traits. I also look for stories of the first man and woman. (One tribe up in Canada says that the Great Spirit saw that the man had been alone long enough. "So he made him his grandmother. And he listened to her.") There are also stories of bringing the mud up from the bottom of the water to create the first dry land after the flood. There are always Thunder beings. Many of them are thunderbirds, but the thunderbirds have opposition. These are creatures which fight with the thunderbirds from the water or from the ground. The one I read about recently was a terrible horned serpent lurking in the water which strikes back at the thunderbirds.

What is wonderful in all of this is that the thunderbeings, far from being dreaded, are regarded as helpful, because they rid the land of huge creatures which made it hard for Indians to live. So the Indians do not fit the theme of unconscious fear of planetary gods. They are not in dread of doomsday, building temples, sacrificing, or repressing any memories. Many tribes responded differently to the global catastrophe. This is why the thunderbolts theme is in error. You cannot say that all people worshiped planets. Some of them also stated plainly that the planets were swinging wildly about the sky. That is what Zarathustrians taught. Zarathustrians are not worshiping Saturn, but say the angels battled the planets when they burned the earth. The Old Testament forbids worshiping any planets or moons or the sun. So that is another response: no idols, and no worshiping planets, in contradiciton to the surrounding cultures, who were doing exactly that. There are a whole range of responses to the electrical catastrophe amongst all the people of the earth. Besides, doesn't anyone know that both the Greeks and Romans put statues of Zeus and Jupiter in the temple at Jerusalem, saying it is basically equivalent to God? That is what Hannukah is about. Stop putting images of Zeus onto other people's beliefs. That is wrong to do. And it compounds the ignorance the Greeks and Romans have imposed already, as it is. No one's gods are equivalent. That is just a convenient Greek and Roman trick and a modern kind of abstracted equation game where there are no texts surviving, or where clear meanings of texts are ignored.

Now is a great time to look at people and histories --using the keys provided by the electricity-- and always remember that in order for these stories to be handed down, people had to keep their own language, and live in their land, and survive many catastrophes-- both natural and from invading empires. If they are really witnesses, this means they have kept their identity for at least 3500 years! Most of all, they had to have a lot of love and respect between generations, to pass the stories on. You don't just ransack through these things and lose as much data as you can, after you pick out the spare parts you need. It takes time to know people. Go listen to your own grandma, too. (;
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:08 pm

Here, why not take the time to read an entire story? The Lenape tribe was along the Delaware River. It was respected as one of the oldest.

The Lenapé Creation Story
(Lenapé Kishelamàwa'kàn)

Our lèpâ'chik, wise ones, say, "Kunakwat, lowat, nuchink...Long, long ago, in the beginning..." at first there was only endless space, and therein dwelt Kishelamàkânk, the Creator. Nothing else existed at this time, all was silence and there was a great peace.

Then it was that Kishelamàkânk had a great vision. In this vision he saw the endless space around him filled with stars, and he saw the sun, the moon, and the Earth. On the Earth he saw mountains, valleys, lakes, rivers, and forests. He saw the trees, flowers, crops, and grasses, and the crawling, walking, swimming and flying beings. He saw the birth of things, their growth and death, and other things that apparently lived forever. Then he heard songs, stories, laughs and cries. The Creator touched the wind and the rain, felt love and hate, courage and fear, happiness and sorrow. Then the vision passed, and it was gone!

Kishelamàkânk, the Creator, had seen that which was unknown, and he thought deeply upon all that he had seen in his vision. He came to understand that the vision would come into being. When there was nothing around him but empty space, his mind saw nothing and so nothing was created. Now, through thought, thinking in his mind of the vision, it started to happen.

There were first created the Keepers of Creation, four powerful Spirit Beings, to help him in his task of fulfilling and creating the vision: the Spirits of the Rock, Fire, Wind, and Water. Into each he breathed life and Spirit, giving each different characteristics and powers. These four beings were:

Muxumsa Lowànewànk, our Grandfather in the North. He was placed there to control the power of rock. He gave forth solidity and physical form to the Creator's thoughts, to his vision. North Grandfather gives us the wintertime, ice, snow, and cold; also, our bodies, the rocks, the trees, and all that we see around us;

Muxumsa Wapànewànk, our Grandfather of the East. He was placed there to control the power of the wind. He gave forth breath and mind to the Creator's vision. He gives us springtime, the breath of life, birth and new beginnings, and brings forth the light, the winds, our minds, creativity, knowledge, music and songs;

Huma Shawànewànk, our Grandmother in the South. She was place there to control the power of fire. She gave forth Spirit, life and growth to the vision of the Creator. She gives us the summer, warmth, growth and maturity, our inner fire and Spirit, and gives fire to the Sun;

Muxumsa Wunchènewànk, our Grandfather in the West. He was placed there to control the power of water. He brought a watery and softening influence to the Creator's vision. He gives us autumn, gives us death, and readies us for renewal, and gave us the waters, our life's blood, healing, intuition, emotions, dreams and visions, and rain.

These four Spirit beings, Keepers of the Creation, did help the Creator to make the stars, the sun, the moon and the Earth.

Now the Creator instructed all of these Beings to come together on the Earth, to give of their powers together to create life. Nux Kishux, our Father Sun, gave heat and light, and Nipahuma. our Grandmother Moon, came down to Earth and gave of her powers of fertility and reproduction. Kukna, the Mother Earth, upon which all life was to be born, gave growth and healing. North Grandfather gave form to all life, East Grandfather gave the breath of life and Spirit, South Grandmother gave inner fire and Spirit, and West Grandfather gave of its water to life, life's blood.

First were made the plant beings of four kinds, grasses, flowering plants, trees, and crops. To each was given, through Spirit, life, growth, healing, and beauty. Each was placed where it would be most useful, and give the greatest harmony and balance to all land and life.

Then were made the animal beings. Each was given special powers and characteristics. There were those that crawled and walked upon the Earth, those that swam in the lakes, rivers, and streams upon the good Earth, and those that flew in the skies above.

Now, Nipahuma, our Grandmother Moon, having been set in the night sky, her Spirit became lonely and so she asked the Creator for a companion. The Creator sent her a Spirit, Grandfather Thunder, Muxumsa Pethakowe, to keep her company. With him she conceived, and when she came to lend her powers of fertility to the Earth to help in the creation of life, she gave birth upon the Earth to twins - one a man, and the other a woman. Thus it was humankind was the last of beings created. Though they were different, man and woman found a wholeness in union with each other. Only together were they complete and fulfilled, only together could they fulfill their purpose. The Creator gave man and woman a special gift, the power to dream. Nipahuma, our Mother who goes by night, the first mother, the mother of all mothers, nurtured her children, and when her purpose was complete she returned to the spirit world; but before she left she told first man and woman that she would never forget them. She continues to watch over us at night as the Moon. The children promised to remember Grandmother Moon whenever she appeared in the sky, giving her light to guide our paths.

In vision the Creator had seen things of opposite natures, and so was created light and darkness, male and female, hot and cold, above and below, good and evil. Where the Creator created, giving forth goodness and light, Matantu, a Spirit of destruction, evil and darkness came into being. Where the Creator made edible plants, Matantu made poisonous plants. Where the Creator made the delicious blackberries, Matantu put thorns on them. Matantu also made tormenting insects such as flies, mosquitoes and poisonous snakes.

Many such laws were woven into the creation by Kishelamàkânk, the Creator, for the well-being, harmony and balance of all things and all creatures. These laws gave place and motion to the sun, moon, Earth and stars, and governed the powers of wind, water, fire and rock, and the circle of life, birth, growth and death. All things existed and worked through these laws.

The Creator's vision was now brought into being.

Now, upon the newly formed Earth, the Creator put a Spirit Being, Kichichax'kàl, the Great Toad, who was given the duty of ruling over the waters of the Earth. He was given the authority, and the power, to cause rain to fall at his will, and was also known as Bikanaki'hàt, the Water Keeper.

One day, Maxa'xâk, and evil Manito (Spirit) appeared, who came to bother and quarrel with the Great Toad. This evil Spirit had the form of a vicious and ugly horned serpent. Maxa'xâk, the horned serpent, fought with Kichichax'kàl, the Great Toad, because he wanted to be the one to rule over the waters of the Earth. One day they fought such a terrible battle that it caused a great disturbance over the whole new Earth. The Great Toad tried to swallow the evil snake, but the monster snake gored the Great Toad so severly that he died. And the four winds, newakishe'na, the mighty seas, and all the waters of the Earth, lashed out in everlasting fury at the evil serpent, but at no avail.

Now, Kishelamàkânk, the Creator of all things, saw the struggle, the turmoil, the steadily growing unrest, and he sent the Thunder Spirit to battle the horned serpent, Masa'xàk. Grandfather Thunder came swiftly, announcing his arrival by the sound of his bone rattles, and shooting his lightning arrows, forcing the evil serpent to flee. The rain fell, the waters rose and gushed forth everywhere, washing away the corruption and evil that had covered the blood-stained Earth. The rising waters caused wide-spread destruction upon the Earth, which became one great sea. Many plants and animals died, and all of humankind perished due to the destruction wrought by the evil serpent.

Now, Maxa'xâk and her children stay put in the watery depths, fearing the Thunderers who pursue them when they dare to venture forth, shooting their lightning arrows at the evil snakes.

At this time, there was another Spirit Being also on the Earth, the Wise and Gifted Being called Nanapush, the Strong Pure One, the Grandfather of Beings and Men. When he saw the rapidly rising water, he sought refuge on the highest mountain, hoping that there he would be safe. But the rain fell and fell and the waters continued to rise, until at last there was left only a small patch of ground on top of this mountain. And upon the top of this mountain, there was growing a small cedar tree. The rain continued, coming down in torrents for many days. It was now apparent that all of the seven islands, and the mountains, would soon be entirely covered with water. So the great and wise Nanapush picked up the animals and birds that had gathered on the mountain-top, and he tucked them carefully and safely inside his shirt. Then he went to the cedar tree, and spoke to it before he started to climb it. As he climbed he broke off branches and put them under his belt. Soon he reached the top of the tree, but the waters continued to rise and rise, now almost to his feet. So the great Nanapush began to sing and beat upon his bow-string which served as a drum. As he sang, the cedar tree, the sacred tree, began to grow, and it kept on growing as the waters continued to rise. After a long time, Nanapush, the Strong Pure One, the Grandfather of Beings and Men, grew tired of singing his song of peace to the raging elements, so he threw upon the waters the branches which he had plucked as he climbed. At once they took the form of a strong raft. On this raft he carefully placed all of the creatures he had saved, and the floated upon the waters on the cedar raft. Soon he saw the mountain peaks disappear under the steadily rising water; only Nanapush and the creatures he had saved remained alive.

After some time, Nanapush decided a new Earth should be made, a task he could well perform through the powers granted to him by the Creator. So he held a Council with the little creatures and they went to work to help him form a new island. Their first duty would be to get some soil from the submerged Earth. The first one to offer his help was Mitewile'un, the Loon. He dived and stayed down a very long time. When he came floating back up to the surface he was dead. So the great Nanapush breathed upon the unfortunate Loon, and its life was restored. Now Kùna'moxk, the Otter, dived down, but he failed in the attempt and also came up dead; he too was restored to life by Nanapush. Then Tamakwa, the Beaver, tried, but he in turn failed and had to be revived. Then Nanapush turned to Tamask'was, the Muskrat, and told him that he must try very hard to reach the old Earth. The little Muskrat stayed down twice as long as any of the rest, and he came to the surface completely exhausted, but still alive. An in his mouth and paws he carried some of the precious mud from the old world below the waters. The great Nanapush was pleased, and he carefully revived the little Muskrat and blessed him, promising that his kind would never die out.

Now Nanapush made a great ceremony, a thanksgiving ceremony, the first thanksgiving ceremony ever to take place. Then, Nanapush called for a helper who would receive and carry the new Earth. Taxkwâx, the Turtle, responded and was at once chosen to perform this important duty. Nanapush placed the mud brought back by Tamask'was, the Muskrat, upon the back of the Turtle, and blew his life-giving breath into it. Immediately it began to grow; it grew and grew until it became the great island where all of us are living today. Because Turtle carried the new Earth on his back, this is why this land upon which we live is called Taxkwâx Mènâ'te, Turtle Island, and Amankitaxkwâwikan'ànk, the Place of the Great Turtle's Back.

For his help, Taxkwâx, the Turtle, became the messenger of thoughts and feelings between different beings. A symbol of thought given and received, representing communication between all things.

After some time had passed, Nanapush sent Tàme, the Wolf, to see how large the new Earth had grown. The first time Wolf went on his journey, he was gone for one day. The second time he went he was gone for five days; the next, ten days; then, one moon; next, one year; then, five years, then again, for twelve years. The next time he went, he never returned, but became lost on the great wide Earth and died of old age. That is why today, at every full moon, the wolves sit in the forest howling, in remembrance of the great misfortune suffered by their ancestor long ago.

When Tàme, the Wolf, failed to return, Nanapush, the Strong Pure One, the Grandfather of Beings and Men, decided that the new Earth was now large enough, so he commanded it to stop growing.

As the waters subsided, that animal beings brought grasses, flowers, trees and food-bearing plants to Nanapush. Into each he breathed life and restored them on their island home.

Then the Earth was dry, and good to look upon. Indeed, it was very beautiful, and there grew a pale and lovely tree from the Mother Earth, and the root of this new tree sent forth a sprout beside it. After a time there grew upon it a man, the first on the new Earth. This man was there alone, and may have remained there alone forever, but the shimmering tree bent over its top to kiss the Mother Earth. Where the tree had touched the Earth, there appeared another sprout, and there grew the first woman of the new Earth.

The wise ones tell us that from those two beings, that man and woman, came our Lenape'wàk, Lenapé people, owing our origin and faithfulness to the shimmering tree and the good Mother Earth.

Now on the new Earth, first man and first woman were nourished by food and drink brought by the animals, our elder brothers. The birds brought song and dance, the butterflies and bees amusement. All the animal beings served in some way except Màka'na, the Dog. Being less gifted than other animals, he had nothing to offer, but felt he must give something. So, the Dog pledged his love, and lay down beside where first man and first woman were sleeping. From that day the dog has remained by the side of humankind.

The first winter was a difficult one for those first Lenapé. The weather was very bad and the animals found food hard to find for them. So, Maxkwe, the Bear, fearing their death, offered of himself that they might live. With Bear's flesh they survived, and thereafter the other animals gave of themselves, their lives, to feed human beings. In gratitude and honor of the sacrifice of Bear, our ancestors held special ceremonies of thanksgiving for the gift of life from Bear and the other animals. We survive and have life because of the deaths of our elder brothers.

Nanapush taught our Lenape'wàk how to make everything we would need to live, the making of clothing, homes, canoes; he taught us the principles of leadership, that we should not strive for power and control over others; he taught us how to make weapons and how to defend ourselves; taught us our way of life and wisdom, how we should live our lives, in a way that is good, and taught us the greatest of all virtues, generosity and kindness; he taught us how to hunt and fish, how to grow crops and harvest them, how to cook and keep food through the winter. Nanapush gave our Lenape'wàk sacred medicine bundles which were to give us spiritual power to help us in times of need, he gave us the ceremonies we were to observe, taught us healing and our spiritual ways, and the importance of dream and vision.

Then, when Nanapush was sure of their survival, he called our Lenape'wàk to him and told them he was leaving. He told them always to remember the things and ways of life he had taught them, for then they would always live in peace and harmony with all land and life. The Old Ones say that his Spirit is with us still, and that if there comes a time when this world should end, he will come again to help guide us into a new Earth.

Nanapush was directed by a dream to retire into the wide expanses of the barren lands to the North, where he was to make for himself a home. So, he changed himself into a rabbit, and left, never being seen again by our people. Since that time, our Lenape'wàk have never used rabbit for food, as it is a symbol of the regeneration and continuing of life.

When Nanapush arrived in the far northern lands he found the peaceful silence and quiet contentment which he so much desired. There he built for himself a very large Wikwàm, a house, made of ice and snow. Now, every winter, he sleeps, like Maxkwe, the Bear, but before going to his bed of bearskins, he always smokes his pipe. So, the next time you see the pretty colored leaves on the trees in autumn and thick fog in the morning, you will know that Nanapush the Great Being, Grandfather of Beings and Men, is smoking his pipe and preparing to take his long winter nap.

http://henryhahn.net/myths/lenapecreation.html


From: The Grandfathers Speak by: Hìtakonanu'laxk
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Brigit Bara
 
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:18 pm

My kids and I do this for some of their Social Studies.
Brigit,
Thank you for the "social studies".
[url]link[/url]


Lloyd,

Think i've read where you were proposing a cataclysmic impact east of Madagascar ?
Here is a "recently published" gravity map of the Indian Ocean from new satellite data. Obviously their time frames and tectonic dynamics are center -mainstream, but the image detail is impressive.

http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/im ... 14_lrg.png
(large, slow loading)

article-
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/v ... c=eoa-iotd


jfyi
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:40 pm

I have been reading many Indian legends for the past several years. To be honest, I could have provided Grey Cloud with many native American flood stories. I could have offered them from the NW, the SW, the Mountain states, the Great Plains, the South, the Midwest, and New England--which would have covered more than a local tsunami prone area, obviously.
Grey Cloud has read many native American stories, N,S and Central; many of them flood stories, many of them sunken (is)land stories; many of them etiological; none had dates. Grey Cloud also recalls that very many of these peoples did not originate anywhere near where they resided in historical times or the present. e.g (off the top of my head) the Apache are said to have originated somewhere near the 46th(?) parallel. Way up north anyway. Grey Cloud has much respect for Gitche Manitou, Tirawa, Wakan Tanka and all the rest. Grey Cloud's nickname is not entirely frivolous.
And lest we forget, the Americas form a large part of the world's surface but they are not all of it so even if all the N American stories related to the same event it would still not prove a global deluge.

Lovely story from the Lenape there. Creation myth with destruction myth tagged on the end, similar to the Sumerian. Lots of motifs common to creation myths generally, e.g. 4 pillars (grandfathers, four elements and their associations (so much for Empedocles inventing them according to the experts), world carried on the back of a turtle as per India (and Terry Pratchett).

P.S. The Skidi/Pawnee are a personal favourite.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Roshi » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:10 am

Grey Cloud wrote:http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/ritualcat.html
From the same webpage:
"This story is more about the failings of one man than rituals, cats or scholars."
It is a Zen story so it should be meditated upon (no cat required) not read literally.


It is a story about how people do not question authority or old habits passed on by their teachers (in this case the old monks - that did not question the monks before them and so on). It's not about one man. The first monk had a good reason to tie up the cat, all the others were just unthinking followers, and in time this foolishness grows until monks begin to write "treaties" about the thing they are doing and don't know why they are doing it.
Roshi
 
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Roshi » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:39 am

I admit I did not read Velikovsky (yet), maybe the stuff I write here and it's new to me is well known to everyone here :)

China even has a date for the great flood:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_%28China%29
The Great Flood of Gun-Yu, also known as the Gun-Yu myth (traditional Chinese: 洪水),[1] was a major flood event that continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mounts, or nest on the trees.[2] According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, during the reign of Emperor Yao.


It was during the reign of Emperor Yao that the Great Flood began, a flood so vast that no part of Yao's territory was spared, and both the Yellow River and the Yangtze valleys flooded.[7] The alleged nature of the flood is shown in the following quote:
“ Like endless boiling water, the flood is pouring forth destruction. Boundless and overwhelming, it overtops hills and mountains. Rising and ever rising, it threatens the very heavens. How the people must be groaning and suffering!


Even a map:
A depiction of the system of the zhou, or "islands" (now reinterpreted as "provinces"), a system which Shun is credited with developing as a tool to allow political administration of a territory with ongoing flooding making normal communications impossible, although the number and locations of zhou have varied over time


And an interesting painting of Nuwa and Fuxi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anon ... 3%BCwa.jpg
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