Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:57 pm

Hi Webolife,
Am I missing something here? I don't see anything that is suggestive of calendars as such.

[These are from the NIV]
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also
made the stars.
17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/ ... is+1:14-19

This seems to be just the Sun and Moon. V14 and V15 has 'lights', number unspecified. V16 has 'two great lights' somewhat confusingly named a 'greater' and a 'lesser'.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--
5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD
God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,
6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground--
http://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/ ... sis+2:4-25

This seems to be an abridged creation story, I don't see what it has to do with time-keeping and or calendars. Again
somewhat confusingly, it states there were no plants because no rain and no man but then goes on to say that the
ground was watered by streams coming up from the earth. Given that it refers to plants, fields and man working the ground, it would appear to be written by an agricultural society rather than a nomadic/pastoral one.

22 "As long as the earth endures, seed-time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never
cease."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/8-22.html

Totally lost on this one.

I would suggest that cause of the different ways of referencing time and times in Bible stems mostly, if not entirely, from the many different authors involved writing in the idiom of their time and place.

Here's Plato's take on thing. Timaeus of Locri is the speaker. The 'diverse' = the solar ecliptic and the 'same' =
the galactic ecliptic.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/physis/plato-timaeus/time.asp?pg=2
Time, then, and the heaven came into being at the same instant in order that, having been created together, if ever there was to be a dissolution of them, they might be dissolved together. It was framed after the pattern of the
eternal nature, that it might resemble this as far as was possible; for the pattern exists from eternity, and the
created heaven has been, and is, and will be, in all time. Such was the mind and thought of God in the creation of
time. The sun and moon and five other stars, which are called the planets, were created by him in order to
distinguish and preserve the numbers of time; and when he had made-their several bodies, he placed them in the
orbits in which the circle of the other was revolving-in seven orbits seven stars. First, there was the moon in the
orbit nearest the earth, and next the sun, in the second orbit above the earth; then came the morning star and the
star sacred to Hermes, moving in orbits which have an equal swiftness with the sun, but in an opposite direction;
and this is the reason why the sun and Hermes and Lucifer overtake and are overtaken by each other.


http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/physis/plato-timaeus/time.asp?pg=3
Now, when all the stars which were necessary to the creation of time had attained a motion suitable to them,-and had become living creatures having bodies fastened by vital chains, and learnt their appointed task, moving in the
motion of the diverse, which is diagonal, and passes through and is governed by the motion of the same, they
revolved, some in a larger and some in a lesser orbit-those which had the lesser orbit revolving faster, and those
which had the larger more slowly. Now by reason of the motion of the same, those which revolved fastest appeared to be overtaken by those which moved slower although they really overtook them; for the motion of the same made them all turn in a spiral, and, because some went one way and some another, that which receded most slowly from the sphere of the same, which was the swiftest, appeared to follow it most nearly. That there might be some visible
measure of their relative swiftness and slowness as they proceeded in their eight courses, God lighted a fire, which
we now call the sun, in the second from the earth of these orbits, that it might give light to the whole of heaven,
and that the animals, as many as nature intended, might participate in number, learning arithmetic from the
revolution of the same and the like. Thus then, and for this reason the night and the day were created, being the
period of the one most intelligent revolution. And the month is accomplished when the moon has completed her orbit and overtaken the sun, and the year when the sun has completed his own orbit. Mankind, with hardly an exception, have not remarked the periods of the other stars, and they have no name for them, and do not measure them against one another by the help of number, and hence they can scarcely be said to know that their wanderings, being infinite in number and admirable for their variety, make up time. And yet there is no difficulty in seeing that the perfect number of time fulfills the perfect year when all the eight revolutions, having their relative degrees of swiftness, are accomplished together and attain their completion at the same time, measured by the rotation of the same and equally moving. After this manner, and for these reasons, came into being such of the stars as in their heavenly progress received reversals of motion, to the end that the created heaven might imitate the eternal nature, and be as like as possible to the perfect and intelligible animal.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby LunarSabbathTruth » Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:58 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Webolife,
Am I missing something here? I don't see anything that is suggestive of calendars as such.

[These are from the NIV]
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.....


The calendar reference is this part: "lights in the expanse of the sky ... to mark seasons and days and years".

A reference to the length of the month is in the story of the Deluge.

Genesis

7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.


Points from above: The flood began on Day 17 of Month 2 and lasted for 150 days, ending on Day 17 of Month 7. That is exactly 5 months with a total of 150 days. The simplest explanation is 5 of 30 day months.

The passage in Genesis 1:14 says that a certain light in the heavens was used to mark days and seasons; the simplest explanation of what this unamed light was which marked the 30-day month is "the Moon".

- joe
LunarSabbathTruth
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:47 pm
Location: USA

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:43 pm

How Land Creatures Survived
Gary N, regarding how could land animals, humans and plants have survived so many global cataclysms, Noah's Ark would be one possibility. However, it seems from myths that the ark was more likely an apparition in the ancient sky. Or it could have been both, an apparition and an actual ship. Mike Fischer has reasoned that the Great Flood occurred when the supercontinent had no high mountains. Since the Flood appears to have deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata on the supercontinent, there likely was no safe place on land. So Noah's Ark would have been needed to save humans and the main animals needed. Maybe plant "seeds" were taken on board as well.

After the Flood the cataclysms that followed did not affect all of the land. During the Impact event that split up the supercontinent and caused rapid continental drift, mountains were raised up and life may have survived on some of them, although many people at Tiahuanaco apparently died in a flood near the top of the Andes.

Question on C14 Dating for Webb
Gordon, THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAMMOTH at http://immanuelvelikovsky.com/Mammoth_01052014.pdf which Nick discussed, says on pp. 214-5
"However, the strongest evidence from radiocarbon testing to support man being in the New World also came [from] Pedra Furada. Charcoal from the deepest fireplace in the strata gave dates of 3,700 ± 830 years and 32,160 ± 1,000 years. Furthermore, an entire series of radiocarbon dates consistently became older as the researchers dug deeper into the site, going from 6,160, 7,750, 7,640, 8,050, 8,450, 11,000, 17,000, 21,400, 23,500, 25,000, 25,200, 26,300, 26,400, 27,000, 29,860, 31,700 to 32,160 years B.P.555 These dates becoming older with depth were just what was later found at Meadowcroft rockshelter Pennsylvania...."

555 N. Guidon, G. Delibrias, "Carbon-14 dates point to man in the Americas 32,000 years ago," Nature, Vol. 321, (1986), pp. 769-771.


I'm assuming that all of those datings are incorrect and that the sediments were all deposited about the same time probably after the Great Flood. But I also assume that the carbon-14 ratios may vary with depth. Or is that untrue? Here's another quote from the book on p. 213.
"As Dr. Roger Wescott told me when I spoke with him by telephone about this on April 17, 1997, radiocarbon always gives a scattered set of dates. The theorists then pick the ones that they believe to be correct."

Do you know if any objective tests have been done to see if the ratios do change with depth? Or is it more likely that the ratios are fairly random and that scientists just pick the dates they like from the "scattered set of dates" that the testing produces? If the ratios really do change with depth, then we'd need to determine why that is, but if they're actually rather random, then we'd need to find proof of this randomness. Eh?
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4339
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:38 am

Hi LunarSabbathTruth,
I wrote:
Am I missing something here? I don't see anything that is suggestive of calendars as such.
. I was rushing and didn't explain myself very well. What I meant was that none of the passages refenced, mentioned or cited an actual calendrical system let alone a change of systems. I understood the reference to lights in the sky and signs for the seasons etc, that is why I included the passages from Plato. This 'lights' and 'signs' thing pops up in the literature of lots of cultures.

With regard to your quote from Gen 7:11, I agree that the simplist way to interpret it is 5 X 30 day months but that does not necessarily mean that they used a 30-day month calendar, or if it was accrate if they did. We today still use 30 days as a rough guide or short-hand for 'month'.

'Incidentally, the Septuagint has the 27th of the month although it agrees on the actual month and the 150 days. My point here is that it is foolish to read the Bible, or any other ancient text, literally. Source criticism is a must.

A point I didn't make in my last post: IMO neither the OT and the NT are particularly sophisticated in literary terms. The stories and explanations of things are generally simplistic and childish compared to, say, Greek or Indian texts. This simplicity or lack of exactitude leaves too much room for interpretation. Consider the way in which Homer embeds astronomical knowledge into the Odyssey.
'the three hundred and sixty boars kept by Eumaeus'.
twenty-two four-wheeled wagons it would take to move the Cyclopian door-stone, a number which any astronomer would tell you, resonates with the solar eclipse cycle.'
http://www.academia.edu/4115210/Astrono ... rs_Odyssey
Interesting little essay that though I think the author may have ripped off another book.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:03 pm

I'm generally in agreement with LunarSabbathTruth on the timing issues, and not sure why GreyCloud objects... I take the plain/direct statements [given cultural, linguistic, "inspirational" etc. contexts] from the scripture because anything else is guesswork. So I know my conclusions are built on that foundation; whether another chooses to except the foundation or not, at least they can figure out where I'm coming from!
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2527
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:28 pm

Lloyd,
Archaeologically, C14 should logically show greater ages as you go deeper in a dig. But I have proposed that prior to the deluge the atmospheric structure prevented the mixing of C14 from the upper atmosphere where it is produced to the biosphere where it is incorporated into living systems. So the influx of C14 after the deluge would result in rapidly "decreasing" age results as you date objects further past the end of the deluge. The uniformitarian assumptions behind standard radiocarbon dating yield might a result of 30,000 BP based on the low C14 count where I would propose ~6000 or so BP.
Geologically speaking, refer to my previous answer!
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2527
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:19 pm

webolife wrote:I'm generally in agreement with LunarSabbathTruth on the timing issues, and not sure why GreyCloud objects... I take the plain/direct statements [given cultural, linguistic, "inspirational" etc. contexts] from the scripture because anything else is guesswork. So I know my conclusions are built on that foundation; whether another chooses to except the foundation or not, at least they can figure out where I'm coming from!


Webolife and LunarSabbathTruth,
I'm still missing something here. I don't have a problem with the ancient Hebrews using a lunar calendar but .... what?
Webolife,
Taking the 'plain/direct statements' is not even close to scholarship or, no offence, common sense. Anything else is not guesswork, it is the result of interpretatation based on the knowledge that the various books (and passages within books) of the Bible were written by many different authors in different locations and at different times. The fact that you mention 'cultural, linguistic, insprational contexts' contradicts the notion of a 'plain/direct' statement does it not?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:40 pm

Oh, not at all! The English bible has undergone much shift in nuance from original documentation, I acknowledge that. I use two concordances and check Hebrew scholars, when word studying from the Gr and Heb root meanings. I accept scholarship confirmation that we have a well documented book, and trust that "inspired" also includes "preserved". That being said, all language is culturally derived and no text has meaning without a grammatical and documentary context, and I trust that when God "spoke" through his prophets He did not lie, albeit was communicating to them in a way they could understand (nothing else makes much sense). So when I read I ask myself, what does the original language mean here, what was the principle behind the text, and how is this confirmed by other references? I am not dissuaded by folks who attempt to brush off texts of scientific relevance by saying, "The bible is not a science book!" as if that would justify a scripture declaring blatant untruth. I've heard these people try to use arguments like "The bible says that sun rises and sets, which is clearly a geocentric myth!" to justify their position against accepting the plain meaning of the bible. This is of course spurious and ridiculous, since scientists today still use the same language when viewing the sun from the earth (like we all do!), and virtually no one I've met thinks this means the sun orbits the earth. The question I ask then is, what truth is being communicated here, and what relevance does that truth have for my understanding of earth history? When I stopped trying to harmonize and reinterpret the scripture with modern suppositions, and started accepting the plain meaning, a whole new outlook on a cogent catastrophic "eye-witness" storyline began to emerge. So I accordingly look at the scripture through the catastrophic lenses of that paradigm rather than through the gradualism and evolutionary paradigms of modern science. I find that my Earth Science major and 38 years of teaching have been enhanced and broadened by my ability to appreciate the tentativeness and malleability of science (and vice versa).
I find also that my faith has been confirmed and deepened by the realization that the documents upon which it is founded are trustworthy and relevant.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2527
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:21 pm

Gordon & others, check out
The Torah Retold at:
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=4741-4752-5653-5669-5675;
especially these 3 papers:
Akhenaten, Ramose, & Atenism;
The "Conquest" of Canaan;
Patriarchs, Judges, & Kings.

Charles wrote those and they sound like good reasoning to me. What do yous think?

He says a lot of Hebrew history was probably conflated in order to help unify the people, especially at the time of Josiah, when the Torah was written or rewritten. He explains the history from the time of Joshua to Abraham to Moses and says the "Exodus" was due to a real plague carried by fleas etc.

The stories of cataclysms in the Bible aren't discussed there, I don't think, but the biblical stories seem to be the same stories told in the myths of many ancient nations, which is why I think comparative mythology makes eminent sense.
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4339
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:15 am

Webolife,
We can agree to differ on the merits or otherwise of the Bible etc but I'm still at a loss regarding the calendar business.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:58 pm

Ancient 360 Day Year
Grey Cloud, did you see this from beforeus.com on the first page of this thread?
FLOOD DATE ALSO DEFINED: The Flood ended in 2344 BC. The Great Pyramid independently confirms this date (Stewart, The Mystery of the Great Pyramid, pp 17-19). The star group Aquarius is featured in the astronomy of the Pyramid. Ancient peoples associated AQUARIUS with the waters of the GREAT FLOOD. The pyramid measurements incorporate the length of the new, post-Flood 365¼ day year, and NOT the pre-Flood 360 day year.
-The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Roman, Mayan, Indian and Egyptian calendars were 360 days long. But later, every nation changed its calendar.


This website seems to be a good source for those as well as for related Bible passages:
http://360dayyear.com/
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4339
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:11 pm

Grey CLoud,
I'm still not sure what your objection is... I didn't mention anything about the calendar, except that times and seasons were marked astronomically before the flood, and seasons were axis-tilt-based afterward, derived from the weather references you quoted. These weather references are in stark contrast to the water cycle described in the references from Gen 4, lending further support to the axis-tilting event being in conjunction with the deluge period.
The sequence and timing of pre-flood, deluge, and post-flood events is what I find instructive wrt the catastrophic storyline I have presented, regardless of the calendar question. However, as Lloyd has referenced, the early calendars incorporated lunar months of 30 days, with periodic adjustments worked in variously by different ancient groups, so I have no problem accepting the timelines given by either the Masoretic or Septuagint sources. The Septuagint has some conflated ages, I understand, but I have no strong opinion (due to lack of conclusive evidence) about which version is more "correct".
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2527
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:35 pm

Lloyd, Charles is always an interesting read for me. He is very thoughtful and well referenced.
That we don't agree about everything simply makes ongoing dialogue assured, educational, and assuredly entertaining!
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2527
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:38 pm

Webo;ife,
I'm going to draw a line under this. I appear to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, or possibly the wrong stick altogether. Or perhaps it wasn't even a stick in the first place. :oops: :D
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby GaryN » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:42 pm

@seasmith
Maybe that is why a number of ancient cultures with surviving tales have proclaimed Their place as the "Navel of the World"


Yes, that is a recurring theme. Some north American legends do state that it was the Gods who put them there, and looked after them until they were able to fend for themselves. I am quite willing to believe this to be literal truth. They were the centres where life was re-established.

@Lloyd
How Land Creatures Survived
Gary N, regarding how could land animals, humans and plants have survived so many global cataclysms, Noah's Ark would be one possibility.


Another recurring theme, though descriptions of the arks varied, and in the case of our local native legends here, it was a large canoe. The survival of a small remnant, as the Greek texts tell us, but I don't believe anything survived some of the catastrophic events, and must conclude that they survived because they were not on the planet at the time. Mad science fiction? Perhaps, but I have to seriously consider that the Gods were real. physical entities, advanced beings who really did create all life on Earth, likely numerous times.
The catastrophes were all due to the Suns behaviour I believe, and I will start a new thread when I get chance, "Solar Catastrophism", as that term, surprisingly, does not seem to have been much used, and not in the sense I intend.
The Solar Catastrophes I'd say are due to double layer explosions, and the explosion from the inner, iron layer are the ones that are the most energetic, and will explain the existence of the large amounts of iron close to the surface of some planets. Forces outside of the flare/CME events we are familiar with will exist, forces with the capability to reshape the top few kilomeres of the Earths surface, and maybe much deeper still.
I don't believe in continental drift, Pangea, planetary collisions or near misses, evolution, etc, so I don't really have a stake in this thread, and will endeavour to explain my views fully in a new thread. Even the existence of languages is a puzzle to mainstream, they seem to have sprung from nowhere and been complex and complete, suggesting perhaps that they were all provided by the Gods, along with the legends themselves, which, even more incredulously, seem to have been designed to self correct due to the way they are told, and are capable of being passed down almost unchanged over many generations. Too clever by far to have been created by simple tribes just struggling to survive after such catastrophic events.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests