Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby Mjolnir » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:13 pm

I wonder about the role of rethoric in all this.

Personally, I found Shermer's article to be rethorically weak. The way it relied on apppeal to authority (thousands of physicists, Time's Person of the Century) and unsubstantiated claims (Your GPS wouldn't work if Einstein wasn't right), actually (IMHO) was rather disappointing. So to me, his rethoric simply doesn't support his case.
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby IgorTesla » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:41 pm

I just watched this EU2015 conference and was very dissapointed on how the discussion was developing,
Personally i think M. Shermer is in no way able to understand either the accepted nor the EU theory.
His demanding nature for practical appliances as a result of the EU science is very odd at least.
He talks as if the space shuttle was build right after Einstein came up with E=mc2 and he also forgets that the Thunderbolts project doesn't have the funding like the mainstream science has.
As a matter of fact he was actually very insulting when he was talking about how to raise money to fund the project.
He had no intention at all to be openminded and seemed to be persistent in being opposed to anything related to the EU theory.
Every word he said was intended to obscure any progress in the discussion itself and therefor this meeting was a complete waste of time in my opinion.

To be honest, from my point of view he is just another person to be ignored unless his narrow mindedness is a result of an illness but most likely he is just another henchmen from NASA being paid to oppose the EU theory.

This will probably be interpreted as an insult towards M.Shermer but then again it can be seen as a compliment to D.Talbott and W.Thornhill for their patience to endure this 80 minute showdown ...

The only usefull information i could deduce from this meeting is that it confirms the fact that mainstream science is actively trying to prevent any progress whatsoever in order to insure they keep receiving their funds,
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby Eaol » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:10 pm

I honestly thought that Shermer made some good points during the panel (not the article haha), and agree that EU proponents should spend far less time criticizing the mainstream and more time and effort repeatedly trying to get stuff published in relevant journals. I especially liked what Schwartz and Shermer said in regards to that subject during the panel.
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby celeste » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:09 pm

IgorTesla wrote:I just watched this EU2015 conference and was very dissapointed on how the discussion was developing,
Personally i think M. Shermer is in no way able to understand either the accepted nor the EU theory.


Was there a doubt? Shermer thinks he has defended mainstream astrophysics from EU challengers. He also defends mainstream medicine from those who challenge the safety or effectiveness of vaccinations. He'll defend the mainstream evolutionary biologists against criticism from creationists. He can defend mainstream historians from attacks by holocaust deniers. In any area of research, across all mainstream disciplines, he understands not only the mainstream view, but every nuance of each challenge to it.

Or at least he proclaims he does.

All you need to know about Shermer is this: He was once a competitive cyclist, just like Lance Armstrong. He had all the Ego of Lance, he just couldn't ride a bike as well. So now he's the defender of the mainstream world view? And we are going to listen to him?
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby willendure » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:24 am

Bengt Nyman wrote:So far nobody on this forum has presented any factual objections to electrostatic dipole gravity.


... rolls eyes ...

I and others presented you with several factual objections. Apply a voltage to a metal foil and it should float away... remember that one?
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby willendure » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:29 am

BecomingTesla wrote:*Everyone* who is here, is here because mathematics isn't enough. Everyone here questions the Big Bang, dark matter, GR, etc. *because* they don't believe that mathematics is enough. If they did, they'd be studying astrophysics at university, instead of coming here and teaching themselves.


Its perhaps not right to say *everyone*, but I agree with the general thrust of what you are saying. I am here to look for proof beyond mathematics. As our knowledge of the universe increases, our theories will be rewritten, and by the time we get to the truth of the matter, they will have been rewritten many times.
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby Bengt Nyman » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:16 am

willendure wrote:I and others presented you with several factual objections. Apply a voltage to a metal foil and it should float away... remember that one?

Remember Physics 101, or were you asleep ?
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby querious » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:47 am

Bengt Nyman wrote:
willendure wrote:I and others presented you with several factual objections. Apply a voltage to a metal foil and it should float away... remember that one?

Remember Physics 101, or were you asleep ?


Willendure,
Why do you keep banging your head against the wall trying to get a straight answer out of Bengt?
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby Bengt Nyman » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:55 am

[quote="querious"][quote="willendure"]
Go back to school both of you. Talk to you in a couple of years.
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:20 am

IgorTesla wrote:I just watched this EU2015 conference and was very dissapointed on how the discussion was developing..

I found both the questions and the answers very bad.

He placed a biased question whether another gravity could improve the calculations.
It made me think, because I am working on the math of it. And I want to make a simulator to
compare different models of gravity.
He explained that his "friend" needed to do complex calculations to predict
the movement of a space vehicle. He stressed that relativity was necessary.
Surely such calculations were made in some kind of computer program? I hope I can get my hands on it.
Later I realized that he probably meant special relativity, which is in most calculations.
Additionally he might have used a derivative of the gravity equations, to simulate the mercury like orbits.
This derivative adds a 1/r^4 force to Newton's gravity. I believe that the EU uses electromagnetism to
explain this force?
Sadly we don't know.

The answer that could have been given was that on the level of the solar system, the current model
of gravity seems pretty accurate. But on the level of galaxies, the gravity can not predict the movement
of the stars anymore. Therefore a new insight in the forces that are active in the galaxy might give better
predictions that have no need for invisible explanations.

What I was generally missing is the cooperation between both branches of science.
This seems a problem with mainstream in general, and maybe the American school system.
Let the people involved in calculations compare the different models, let them exchange
what is right and what is wrong with the models. Let them support each other.
Both parties will learn from it.

Anyway, I am glad I was not there.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby gocrew » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:35 am

BecomingTesla wrote:@gocrew: Insular is one thing, and vigilant is another. Bengt has been having a conversation with willendure and querious for the last two weeks at least about his hypothesis on this forum, and that's all well and good. The free flow of ideas, however outrageous they may seem at first, is the only thing that's going to clear up the mess that astrophysics and cosmology current sits in. Everyone here needs to be able to discuss their own ideas, demonstrate their proofs, and present their evidence.

What no one here needs are people calling for bans and even more censorship than already exists in science, because they don't agree with a theory that lacks any kind of evidence for support. Which is what Bengt is calling for. No one here has to agree blindly with Wallace Thornhill in order to support the overall ideas/framework of plasma cosmology, or the electric universe.


I completely agree with you. I mistakenly quoted and responded to you but that comment was meant for Bengt. :D
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby allynh » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:29 am

When I read the Scientific American article I went, "Ouch!" Then I pulled up Shermer's talks on TEDTalk and reminded myself how he makes his living; by talking about deception, and by deceiving people.

Why people believe weird things - 2006
http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_sherme ... nge_things

The pattern behind self-deception - 2010
http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_sherme ... _deception

When I originally heard that Shermer had been invited to the 2015 conference I was concerned that the EU was being associated with somebody like him.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightat ... l-shermer/

As to the snarky EU comments in this thread; that's normal human nature. When Shermer did not have his own "Road to Damascus" moment, people instantly cry, "See! We're doing this all wrong."

If you study the history of Science there is that endless cry; that if we just do everything "right", "they" will accept what we are saying. Thomas Kuhn in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" puts the lie to all that.

I was taught Kuhn in high school in the early 70s. The school books said that Kuhn was showing that science moves forward, "step-by-step". This was a lie. They minimized the word "Revolutions" in the book's title to hide the truth.

- That Science moves forward with bloody revolution after bloody revolution; with people's careers destroyed before the revolution and after the revolution.

Do not mourn at the lost "opportunity" to convert somebody like Michael Shermer to the "true way". Remember what Max Planck said:

- Science advances one funeral at a time.
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby querious » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:37 pm

willendure wrote:
querious wrote:Willendure,
What "obvious flaws in the nuclear fusion model", that Wal presents, do you find compelling?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kin9zqPMPaI

Actually, I made a mistake, the presentation I was thinking of is the one above by Don Scott.

He points out that the sun is cooler underneath than in the corona, a nuclear furnace would surely be hotter the closer you get. Also the temperature dip as charged material is accelerated out of the sun indicates that a strong voltage field exists, causing the temp. dip as brownian motion is restricted by the strong directional acceleration. And generally pokes a lot more holes in the accepted theory.

So you think there's no fusion in the core, and it occurs in the corona only? Or no fusion at all?
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby antosarai » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:22 am

Isn't this topic kind of typical(ish) of EU 'policies' ?

Doesn't one gets from the same statements a unique, personal reading, antagonistic to the majority of other reading?

Isn't everyone more concerned with their personal trends than with the posting topic?

Isn't everyone more involved with their arguments than with conclusions, if any?


Full of sound and fury?
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Re: Michael Shermer’s article on his EU2015 experience

Unread postby D_Archer » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:54 am

antosarai wrote:Isn't this topic kind of typical(ish) of EU 'policies' ?

Doesn't one gets from the same statements a unique, personal reading, antagonistic to the majority of other reading?

Isn't everyone more concerned with their personal trends than with the posting topic?

Isn't everyone more involved with their arguments than with conclusions, if any?


Full of sound and fury?


Dunno, yes, yes and yes.

What bothers me most is not addressing the topic at hand.

On the other hand i know some more forum posters i can ignore*. (With at least 1 actually lying).

---

I think the article Shermer wrote is enough to dismiss him completely, there are no lessons here, nothing of 'worth' is actually brought up, no data, no experiment, no sciene, no deeper understanding of nature, i read and listen to people that bring 'content'.

Regards,
Daniel

*brings back memories of nereid, which i ousted.
- Shoot Forth Thunder -
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