The Case for the Afterlife

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby tayga » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:13 am

OK, this time I’ve waited to read the entire document before commenting further. As a collection of anecdotal evidence, it is hard to fault although the author’s gushing estimation of every witness who supports the idea of an afterlife is extremely tiresome.

I probably didn’t make it clear before that I’m very comfortable with the idea of reincarnation based on my own experiences and the originations of my daughter as a young child.

Intellectually, the idea of perpetual reincarnation is possibly easier to digest than the particular specialness of our current existence in relation to surviving death. I still find it difficult to reconcile evidence of reincarnation with the fascination some of those who have passed on have with our particular existence. The accounts raise a lot of questions. Here are my first few:

1. Why are those who are communicating with researchers now doing so at this time rather than before?
2. If there are dozens or hundreds communicating from the next existence why aren’t there millions?
3. Is commonplace in the afterlife to be aware of this existence?
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn
User avatar
tayga
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:54 am

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:31 pm

1. Why are those who are communicating with researchers now doing so at this time rather than before?
2. If there are dozens or hundreds communicating from the next existence why aren’t there millions?
3. Is commonplace in the afterlife to be aware of this existence?


1. As far as i know, there has always been communications. There are instances and references in the bible, which says not to do it.

2. There may be. People may be reluctant to admit these experiences.

3. From what i have read, there are all levels of awareness, from those in a coma/sleep (not aware) , to those who teach at the highest level of evolution, aware of the esoteric nature of creation.

This book is a compilation, and i guess one needs to go to other individuals' books for more details of the research.

For my part, i have almost given up on seances, since the restrictions and the lack of or questionable controls seem to be a stumbling block for me.

I may have to wait for the snow before i can read in depth...
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:27 pm

1. Why are those who are communicating with researchers now doing so at this time rather than before?
2. If there are dozens or hundreds communicating from the next existence why aren’t there millions?
3. Is commonplace in the afterlife to be aware of this existence?


1.True Sparky, until Paul and his well known misogyny Christian Services were akin to seances usually led by women who were 'sensitives' in private homes. Constantine threw out all overt references to this in his compilation of the Bible, 325? AD but a few documents remain that confirm this. It's 30 years since I read up on this, but that is what I accepted then. The admonition not to do it helped the establishment of a vast bureaucracy of priesthood that had to be the intermediary, and then failed to do even that.

2. It is not easy. To paraphrase one of the scientists who was on the Cross Correspondences project, 'it is like dictating through a thick frosted glass to a reluctant secretary who doesn't understand what I am saying.' For meaningful exchange it seems that there has to be those on the other side adept at communicating as well as this side. Look up Jose Arigo and his life story and Doctor helpers from the other side. "The Moon and Two Mountains" by Pedro Mcgrgor gives a good account of his work, also published as "Brazilian Magic, is it the Answer?"
Also, it seems that it is easier to get communication with those on the other side who are still attached to the lower 'plane, those who do not realise they are dead or still attached to people and places in this life and try to use people for their own ends, hence all the cautions about 'dabbling' in this field. There are books on psychic protection and I would recommend reading one or two before experimenting.

3. Probably as common as belief in reincarnation on this side. For many Asian cultures it is accepted as a matter of course.

Modern hypnotic regression is being used to find evidence of past lives. "Life before Life" by Helen Wambach Ph.D 1979 is an early one of those, very boring reading as it consists of hundreds of results of questionnaires of subjects who were regressed to the period immediately before birth, boring, but convincing by sheer numbers.
Julian Braggins
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:13 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:02 am

I found the link to the "Direct voice recordings".

http://www.freewebs.com/afterlife/flint ... rdings.htm

I find it difficult to understand much of the recordings that i downloaded. There are some transcripts available.

Here is another site that provides validation.

Julian,
1.True Sparky, until Paul and his well known misogyny Christian Services were akin to seances usually led by women who were 'sensitives' in private homes. Constantine threw out all overt references to this in his compilation of the Bible, 325? AD but a few documents remain that confirm this. It's 30 years since I read up on this, but that is what I accepted then. The admonition not to do it helped the establishment of a vast bureaucracy of priesthood that had to be the intermediary, and then failed to do even that.


Here is a link that goes into more detail.

I also found this amazing story:

The Most Awesome Spirit Story You'll Ever Read--K'ung Fu Tzu

by Mike Tymn

Original at http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~thegroundo ... %7Coutline


Over the years I have read hundreds of accounts of spirit communication through mediums. People sometimes ask me to name the most interesting case I have come across. I tell them it is the story told by Dr. Neville Whymant, a British professor of linguistics, in his 1931 book, Psychic Adventures in New York.

Whymant, who is said to have known 30 languages, was visiting New York City in 1926 and was invited to attend a séance at the home of Judge and Mrs. William Cannon on Park Ave. Whymant had never before attended a séance and was quite sceptical, even though he knew William Cannon to be a highly-respected lawyer and judge.

It was explained to Whymant that the medium, George Valiantine, was a direct-voice medium and that his vocal cords did not produce the voices or sounds he would hear during the séance. Rather, an aluminium trumpet, which was placed in the centre of the circle of chairs, would be used by the spirits in amplifying their otherwise weak or whispered voices. The medium, Whymant was told, simply provided the ectoplasm from which the spirits moulded vocal cords and larynges. Whymant had heard such mediums are expert ventriloquists and was on guard for that possibility.

Like many mediums, George Valiantine apparently began losing some of his powers, during the early 1930s, after a dozen or so years of producing awesome phenomena. As a result, he was accused of being a charlatan and his reputation was thereafter tainted. It is, however, difficult to read the accounts of Valiantine's mediumship by many credible and intelligent men and believe that he was anything but a true medium before his powers began leaving him, or before low-level spirits began controlling him. It was reported that at least 14 languages, including Portuguese, Italian, Basque, Welsh, Japanese, Spanish, Russian, Hindustani, and Chinese were spoken by spirits through Valiantine. Moreover, many deceased friends and relatives spoke to the sitters in their characteristic voices and talked of things which Valiantine could not possibly have known about or researched.

To begin the séance, the group recited the Lord's Prayer, and then sacred music was played on a gramophone in order to “bring the vibrations into harmony with those of the spirit world.”

“Suddenly into the sound of the singing came the sound of a strong voice raised in greeting,” Whymant recorded. “It seemed to rise up from the floor and was so strong that for some moments I felt convinced that I could actually feel the vibrations of the floor.” The voice, Whymant was informed, was that of Dr. Barnett, the spirit leader of the circle, who opened it and closed it at will. Shortly thereafter, another voice “totally different in timbre and quality” was heard. This voice, the newcomers were informed, was that of Blackfoot, an American Indian of the tribe of that name, who was the keeper of the “spirit door.” Some whispered messages to regular members of the circle from deceased relatives or friends then followed. Mrs. Whymant's father communicated in his characteristic drawl, reminiscent of the West County of England. Whymant was certain that Valiantine could have known nothing of his wife's father.

The trumpet floated in front of Whymant and he heard a “voice” come through in an ancient Chinese dialect: Greeting, O son of learning and reader of strange books! This unworthy servant bows humbly before such excellence. Whymant recognized the language as that of the Chinese Classics, edited by Confucius 2,500 years earlier. It was Chinese so dead colloquially as Sanskrit or Latin. “If this was a hoax, it was a particularly clever one, far beyond the scope of any of the sinologues now living,” Whymant mused.

Although he understood the ancient language, Whymant found it necessary to respond in more modern Chinese. Peace be upon thee, O illustrious one. This uncultured menial ventures to ask thy name and illustrious style. The “voice” replied: My mean name is K'ung, men call me Fu-tsu, and my lowly style is Kiu.

Whymant recognized this as the name by which Confucius was canonized. Not certain that he heard right, Whymant asked for the voice to repeat the name. “This time without any hesitation at all came the name K'ung-fu-tzu,” Whymant wrote. “Now I thought, was my opportunity. Chinese I had long regarded as my own special research area, and he would be a wise man, medium or other, who would attempt to trick me on such soil. If this tremulous voice were that of the old ethicist who had personally edited the Chinese classics, then I had an abundance of questions to ask him.”

At that point, the “voice” was difficult to understand and Whymant had to ask for repetition. “Then it burst upon me that I was listening to Chinese of a purity and delicacy not now spoken in any part of China.”

Apparently the communicating spirit recognized that Whymant was having a difficult time understanding the ancient dialect and changed to a more modern dialect. Whymant wondered how he could test the voice and remembered that there are several poems in Confucius' Shih King which have baffled both Chinese and Western scholars.

Whymant addressed the “voice”: This stupid one would know the correct reading of the verse in Shih King. It has been hidden from understanding for long centuries, and men look upon it with eyes that are blind. The passage begins thus: Ts'ai ts'ai chüan êrh…

Whymant had recalled that line as the first line of the third ode of the first book of Chou nan, although he did not recall the remaining 14 lines. “The ‘voice' took up the poem and recited it to the end,” Whymant wrote.

The “voice” put a new construction on the verses so that it made sense to Whymant. It was, the “voice” explained, a psychic poem. The mystery was solved. But Whymant had another test. He asked the “voice” if he could ask for further wisdom.

Ask not of an empty barrel much fish, O wise one! Many things which are now dark shall be light to thee, but the time is not yet…the “voice” answered.

Whymant addressed the “voice”: “…In Lun Yü, Hsia Pien, there is a passage that is wrongly written. Should it not read thus:…?

Before Whymant could finish the sentence, the “voice” carried the passage to the end and explained that the copyists were in error, as the character written as 'sê' should have been 'i', and the character written as 'yen' is an error for 'fou'. It all made sense to Whymant, and a mystery that had bothered scholars had been solved.

Whymant attended 11 additional sittings, dialoguing with the “voice” claiming to be Confucius in a number of them. At one sitting, another “voice” broke in speaking some strange French dialect. Whymant recognized it as Labourdin Basque. Although he was more accustomed to speaking Spanish Basque, he managed to carry on a conversation with the “voice.”

“Altogether fourteen foreign languages were used in the course of the twelve sittings I attended,” Whymant concluded the short book. “They included Chinese, Hindi, Persian, Basque, Sanskrit, Arabic, Portuguese, Italian, Yiddish, (spoken with great fluency when a Yiddish- and Hebrew-speaking Jew was a member of the circle), German and modern Greek.”

Whymant also recorded that at one sitting, Valiantine was carrying on a conversation in American English with the person next to him while foreign languages were coming through the trumpet. “I am assured, too, that it is impossible for anyone to ‘throw his voice,' this being merely an illusion of the ventriloquist,” he wrote.

Not being a spiritualist or psychical researcher, Whymant did not initially plan to write the book. However, tiring of telling the story so many times, he agreed to put it in writing, asking that with the publication of the book that others not ask him to tell the story again.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:08 pm

http://www.quantrek.com/Dyadic_model_an ... and_QH.htm

Given what is now known, certain research in progress, and with well informed speculation as to what will be verified in the near future, I suggest that the common experiences can be understood by means of the quantum hologram and related quantum phenomena:

* Nonlocal intuitive feelings about, people, events and objects
* All forms of psychic information (a form of intuition),
* The therapy of past life regression and with it, the popular belief in reincarnation
* The basic nature of our conscious experiences

In the dyadic model, no experience (information) is ever lost, but is carried forward in the quantum hologram that resides in the zero-point field. It seems that nature never forgets anything that it has ever learned or experienced
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:41 pm

http://survivalebooks.org/SilverBelleBig.jpg

hmmmm, image is 357 H x 499 W...was rejected by TB for being too big..??...anywho, it purports to show a materialized spirit...

this is from a booklet that can be downloaded from http://survivalebooks.org/
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:18 am

Thanks Sparky for the above link, a quick look shows that I have a lot of reading in store.
Most of the books at first glance seem to be 'Eye witness reports' , which in the main I accept because of the quality of the witnesses, and can become boring not because of the content, just the sheer numbers of accounts.
I am looking more for the 'how to' so that I can experience something myself, however small. My curiosity is again activated !
Julian Braggins
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:13 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby tayga » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:17 am

Julian Braggins wrote:Most of the books at first glance seem to be 'Eye witness reports' , which in the main I accept because of the quality of the witnesses, and can become boring not because of the content, just the sheer numbers of accounts. I am looking more for the 'how to' so that I can experience something myself, however small. My curiosity is again activated !


Julian, the same thoughts struck me. There really is nothing but data available in this field. No real explanation or understanding. As you say, the reports are both boring and irrefutable at the same time because you can't refute someone else's experience. So, the only way forward for an individual is to try it.

Although I find the area interesting I have a full curriculum at the moment. So, if you do pursue your own experiences I'd be extremely interested to hear how it goes.
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn
User avatar
tayga
 
Posts: 668
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:54 am

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:18 am

Are you interested in receiving a psychic reading
as a volunteer in a scientific research study?


@ https://fs7.formsite.com/windbridge/PRR ... index.html

To participate in a Windbridge Institute experiment as a PRRR, you must have the following characteristics:
--You are 18 or more years old,
--You reside in the United States,
--You speak and write English as your primary language,
--You have an email account and are knowledgeable about sending and receiving e-mail attachments,
--You have NOT experienced the death of any family members, romantic interests, or close friends during your life,



WHAT""!!?? :roll: CAN anyone qualify??!!

anyway, this site is suppose to be scientifically investigating paranormal....
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:29 am

COMMENTARY: ON ADMISSIBLE EVIDENCE
A most fascinating insight is that two opposite extremes - the religious fundamentalists and the closed minded skeptics, behave exactly the same way; they do NOT read material they do NOT believe in, the material they do NOT accept. Christian Fundamentalists for example, will not read the works of Darwin, the evolutionist who claimed the human species evolved from lower animal species.

My TWENTY-TWO years experience of investigating the afterlife and dealing with closed minded skeptics show that these skeptics DO NOT READ any area of the afterlife evidence they do not accept in theory. For example, the most fundamentalist closed minded skeptics will not read, will not investigate the most persuasive objective and repeatable admissible evidence for the afterlife.

As I stated in the recent past, Psychology and Neurolinguistic clearly explain why that happens. The principle is that they do no read any material which is going to give them huge anxiety.


BRAIN-EXPLANATION FOR 'CLOSED SKEPTICISM': Here is another explanation for the stubbornness of closed- minded skeptics. It's the biological argument for closed-skepticism. When you have a rigid belief system the neurons in the brain fire in a certain defined network. So if information (e.g. afterlife evidence) comes into the brain and contradicts the rigid belief system (skepticism) those neural pathways will fire in the same old way and will not de-code the new information. It’s just like a filter. It's only when the skeptic has a dramatic experience that a new neural pathway is established and the old one gradually falls into disuse. Belief systems are fundamental to filtering reality.


Is Belief, whatever kind, more akin to delusion than fact based conclusions?
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Chai Wallah » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:20 pm

i have listened to all of the FLint recordings previously mentioned, from the different individual communicators.
i learned much from them over the years.

But perhaps the most famous communicator is Silver Birch

here is a rare recording of him , which is a very impressive oration.

well worth listening to.

he gives a talk then answers some questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aFtkVRrizU&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL13CAE3A89411042A

-
Checking for spelling mistakes is the last refuge of the Skeptic.
User avatar
Chai Wallah
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:11 am

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:39 am

Sparky,
Your question "Is Belief, whatever kind, more akin to delusion than fact based conclusions?" and the statement that it's only when a skeptic has a dramatic experience ---------- brought to mind the events in the life of Arthur Koestler who was chair of the first Parapsychology dept. of Edinburgh Univ. He became a convinced Marxist at Uni. when a series of unhappy events occurred in the space of a week or two, and despite seeing some of the horrors of Soviet life in the USSR in the 20's remained committed until during the Spanish civil war he was captured , placed before a firing squad ----- and lived. Of course it was a fake execution, designed to break him down, but it did the opposite, and cured him of the 'Belief in Communism' This set him on the path of psychology and then parapsychology.

Someone said " that which was not learned by logic, cannot be reversed by logic" or words to that effect, I try to bear this in mind in argument, hence the old dictum in polite society, religion and politics are 'out' at dinner parties !
Julian Braggins
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:13 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby johnm33 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:13 am

johnm33
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:43 am

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:53 am

johnm33 wrote:Hi Julian check this out too http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/rdp/s_r ... y-rdp.html best


excerpt:
-- that matter could not exist prior to any brain! The development of quantum theory has, therefore, already proved that some form of consciousness had to pre-exist the creation of matter.


nonsense!....there is no need to resort to the hallucinations of quantum theorists.

their newest theory, from mathematical calculations, is that this universe is in a black hole and has a shell of information around it.
nonsense! you can prove anything with esoteric math and a penchant for delusional thinking!

I prefer observations under controlled conditions. Logical deductions from those are more apt to be closer to reality.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Previous

Return to The Human Question

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest