The Case for the Afterlife

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:36 am

The Case for the Afterlife

If not for a chance comment I made on another thread and response to it I would not have started this thread.

I have in fact researched the subject for a number of years and along with many of my friends and relatives have accepted it . Acceptance has given a certain confidence in life – for instance the ability of my wife and me to reject mainstream medicine when we were both confronted with cancer, and go the also well researched alternative way.

I have no need to gain reassurance through agreement but think that from the response from ‘Sparky’ that I may be derelict in my responsibilities by not letting other people review the evidence that I can put forward.

An eminent Sydney lawyer, Victor Zammit, from my home state New South Wales has compiled what I consider the best condensation of evidence that I have come across, and has presented it in a free E-Book of ~250 pages.

The third paragraph in his opening statement sums it up for me:-

“After many years of serious investigation I have come to the irretrievable conclusion that there is a great body of evidence which taken as a whole absolutely and unqualifiedly proves the case for the afterlife. I will not be arguing that the objective evidence has just very high value. Nor am I suggesting that this evidence be accepted beyond reasonable doubt. I am stating that the evidence taken as a whole constitutes overwhelming and irrefutable proof for the existence of the afterlife.”


Before posting on this thread I do recommend that you read the book, all of it. Thunderbolts has shown me a whole group of people that in most cases are willing to examine evidence and weigh it up dispassionately.
That is all that I ask – as ‘Sparky’ put it, “this is the most important question”

The book can be found at http://www.victorzammit.com/book/
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:00 am

Julian, I have not read all of the book yet, as i have some serious repairs to my house that need to be completed soon. But i have talked to someone about this subject and they provided a board to bounce my concerns off of.

One of the things that bothers me the most is that seances are held in the dark. I saw some references to using night goggles, both for and against. I understand the arguments against using them because of the disturbance they might cause, and the danger to the medium.

Materialization is interesting. I have known people who had seen someone after that person had died.

I would like your perspective on an apparent contradiction that i read. There was a reported materialization in South America in daylight, witnessed by many people. This seems inconsistent with the "need for dark".

Sorry, but i don't remember the pages this info. is on.

thank you
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:07 am

Sparky,
I think you can reconcile the apparent contradiction when you read about the difference between full seance ectoplasm materializations which bring into being objects and bodies (and parts of same) that can be handled, and the rare wax glove incidents when a materialized hand was dipped in liquid wax, and the 'glove' remaining after de-materializing was complete with fingerprints and the wrist opening intact. This was not reproducible by any lab attempt, or by stage magicians. No doubt it could be done these days with modern materials but not in the time and under the conditions those seances were held.

Semi- solid apparitions usually seen within a few minutes or days after someone dies do not need energy from outside sources, because they presumably have enough remaining energy from their recent passing.

Persistent ghosts of multiple characters and events are in another class, and are even better documented ranked by the number and class of observers,e.g. Battle of Edgehill observed by King and Royal Court on a later anniversary, but very rare.
It took many books and work with mediums to convince me.
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:22 am

Julian;

Thank you....i'll keep those thoughts in mind as i investigate further.

I knew a guy who was doing psychic phenomenon experiments.
His controls and logic were very lax. His basic evidence was 8mm films of a sealed aquarium in which things would move, appear, or disappear. When i pointed out that the camera caught someone manipulating the subject equipment, he said that was proof that his experiments were valid. He proved himself to be a deceptive person before he died. All people that I have had dealings with in my personal life who claimed "spiritual powers" were manipulative and deceptive. So, if i lean toward the skeptical, that is why.

In the book, I did see the name of the "scientist" that i have mentioned making contact with, and receiving an illogical answer to my inquiry. As is pointed out at this site, having a Phd does not guarantee deductive ability nor credulity. And i must keep in mind that my experiences so far may produce a skepticism that would prevent me from proper investigation.

When my mom was a kid her parents would make her use the ouija board. She didn't like doing it, and she said the pointer would move on it's own. I have found several warnings in the book about using the ouija board. Why wouldn't there be warnings about opening up to or allowing influence of all spirits?

thank you
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby tayga » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:46 am

Thanks, Julian. I've read half of this and I don't doubt the sincerity of the writers. It’s hard to ignore the weight of anecdotal evidence here but there is something that bothers me.

Why the ‘afterlife’ and no discussion of a life before? It seems to me that there is the imposition of a human notion of heaven or, if not heaven per se, something like it which I don't think can be ignored.

The problem of a model wherein there is this life and an afterlife but no life before is that it suggests that life is created by the fusion of an egg and a sperm. OK, if you wish to adopt a physical, reductionist viewpoint but for the afterlife to ensue there must be, inherent in this regular physical life, something which then transcends the physical world we know. So did that something originate with the fusion of the egg and sperm, come to be associated with it later or was it there beforehand?

If it originated with the conception, how? How did this other-worldly thing emerge from a purely physical (as we know it) thing? This sounds like the question of consciousness.

On the other hand, if it was there before this life or came to be associated with it later what is so special about this current existence that this spiritual something insists on hanging around and continuing to adopt a form it was associated with in this human existence?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not to dismissing things spiritual and I doubt that so many people could all have been hallucinating. However, the interpretation superimposed on it doesn’t add up. If there were another plane of existence, a spiritual life, why wouldn’t it be immortal and reincarnate ad infinitum?
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:16 pm

tayga,
Why the ‘afterlife’ and no discussion of a life before?


try reincarnation on page 173

I did a search of ITC, and found some recordings of voices...

sorry, i guess i forgot to bookmark that link....i'll try to find it.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:58 am

Tayga,
there is a chapter in the book on reincarnation, and there are several very good books by serious scientists on the subject, put in a search for 'Dr Stevenson, 20 cases suggestive of reincarnation' 'Dr Banergee, reincarnation' they both actually investigated over 3000 cases, 'Peter Ramster Md Phd, In search of Past Lives" for his book and film and see my posts on the "Where do our EM fields go when we die" thread, just below this one.
One very convincing fact to my mind was that when analyzed , regressed passed lives form into the same proportions of gender, social position and occupation as the living, which would not occur if it was a figment of the subjects mind.

I admit the subject is prone to all sorts of manipulation and fraud, that is why it is important to look for the bona-fides of the authors and conditions of the experiments. For the greater part of its 130 year history the British Society for Psychological Research has been headed by very skeptical investigators. Despite this, most came round to the view that past lives and afterlives were a fact. Even the British Government implicitly agreed that a medium could reveal events that she could not possibly know about when they imprisoned her for revealing official secrets during WWII.
The details are in the book.
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:42 am

Julian, you referred to Helen Duncan, who came to a tragic end by the hysteria motivated incompetence of the police. (pg 97)

That was one of the first chapters that i read, starting on page 91.
The testimonies supporting Helen were convincing, and indicative of paranormal activity. I don't like that word, but i don't know of another better one, except maybe extraordinary, since in my own life such an event or events would not be ordinary.

I am taking a day off from my house repair labor, so will search and read some more...very interesting.

I do wish some more people with more critical reasoning than i would look at this evidence and offer their view on this.

thank you

edit:

I have once again been warned that harm could come from dealing with the '[spirit world". So, once again i am looking for a reliable way to test any communication from the so called spirit world.

First, how do we know or how can we know what we are dealing with? Just because some unknowable information is passed on to us, how do we know that it is "unknowable"? If information exists, it can be hacked! There is usually a strong emotional content to these encounters, leaving an opening for deceit and being conned. And we view the experience from our human perspective and assume that that perspective is valid for whatever realm we are dealing with. How can we test the unknown, pretending to be friendly, if it has access to all information.

thank you for any input concerning this..
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:05 am

Sparky,
I suggest doing a lot of reading before trying any contact without a person who has a lot of experience. A good analogy would be a blind man dropped into a city street and striking up a conversation with the nearest stranger, and asking for guidance on the most personal matters. 'Second sight' is a gift for some, and can be learned by others, I am not one of those, although on a couple of occasions have had a life saving intuition.

A few books you may get on Amazon J B Rhine 'The Reach of the Mind' Prof at Duke Uni. 1948
Books published by the Edgar Cayce foundation on Edgar Cayce
'Astral Journey' by Herbert g Greenhouse
'Reincarnation, Key to Immortality" Marcia Moore - Mark Douglas
Books by mediums, Doris Stokes, 'Voices in my Ear' and 'More Voices in my Ear'
Doris Collins 'A woman of Spirit"
Books on Uri Geller, despite what has been said about him, he has done the most amazing things under lab conditions,
Books by Colin Wilson, he's written quite a few but the titles will be the guide.
'Fifty Years a Medium' Estelle Roberts
'Channeling, how to reach out to your spirit guides' Kathryn Ridall, Ph.D.

and a few more modern 'names' at http://www.victorzammit.com/evidence/qu ... normal.htm

Look up Karnac, Spiritism, and see what a wide influence it has in Brazil and spirit healing there.
Should keep you busy for a while ;)
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:27 am

Julian,
-on a couple of occasions have had a life saving intuition


Yes, I have experienced those also. And picking up the phone before it rang, knowing who was calling.

I will check out the library first, they seem to have several books on various aspects of the paranormal.

I read some on Cayce several decades ago...an interesting guy.

Thank you for the links and response.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Julian Braggins » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:38 am

For those who might think that this subject is not 'scientific' the following article by Miles Mathis is worth reading.

http://mileswmathis.com/atheism.html

He does a fine job in debunking Atheists, but in no way supports Theists, other than showing their respective flaws.
I love this quote " Science is not looking for the next Newton, it is looking to get funded next year"
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby tayga » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:27 am

Julian Braggins wrote:For those who might think that this subject is not 'scientific' the following article by Miles Mathis is worth reading.

http://mileswmathis.com/atheism.html

He does a fine job in debunking Atheists, but in no way supports Theists, other than showing their respective flaws.
I love this quote " Science is not looking for the next Newton, it is looking to get funded next year"


You've go to love Miles. I laughed several times while reading this. The sentence you quoted is priceless.
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:01 pm

I also find miles amusing....

I found this list of books from a google search.

But the rest of the site seems to be written in Arabic!

Could someone please confirm that it is Arabic?

thank you
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby tayga » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:26 pm

Sparky wrote:Could someone please confirm that it is Arabic?thank you


Hi Sparky. It's definitely in Arabic. One of the advantages of Chrome is that it offers translation of non-English pages. Here are the contents of the site's index page translated into English:

Index
Painful truth conspiracy theory
Introduction
History of the United counterfeiter
History of human civilizations forged
How to suppress the truth?
Spiritual authority
Ideological power
Burning of libraries
Secrets of a strategy
Laboratories Camp Hero, Montak
Aliens
Very low frequencies
Hidden messages
Your e-telepathy
Height of the stones in the air
War Albarasikologih
Financial authority
Suppressed inventions
Cold Fusion
Generators working on Space Energy
Electric power transmitted wirelessly
Anti-gravity device
Raif microscope and the generator electromagnetic
System works on splitting water by the electric resonance
A way to convert chemical specifications
Victor Choprgr
Scientific bureaucracy foolish
Moving stones
The ability to freeze (voluntary death)
Sense of orientation when organisms + Alguenqna
What is the reason?
Phenomena rule out the relationship of mind the brain
Plants sane
Cells sane
Mental phenomena that are contrary to the concept of the traditional scientific
Multiple personalities + speak strange languages
Reincarnation
Out from the body
NDE
Extraordinary mental abilities
What is consciousness?
Ethereal world of information
Source of intuition and inspiration
Cosmic Consciousness
Sections of the mind
Mind Cosmic Physics
Awareness and energy
Modern Physics
Human energy field
Generators Alsaikutronah
Conclusion
References


Looks like an interesting site!
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

- Richard P. Feynman

Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
- Thomas Kuhn
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Re: The Case for the Afterlife

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:39 pm

tayga, Thank you!

The list of books is in english, and i noticed a few english words in the arabic text.
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
Sparky
 
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

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