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Amos
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by Amos » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:21 pm

junglelord wrote:What if it was flightless?
I know we would think it had to be a form and function relationship, but maybe it did not fly.
Of course maybe the earth has grown in size.
Hi there, guys. Didn't read the whole post, but the earth HAS grown in size. Check out this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjgidAICoQI

Short video, but a real eye opener. Pangea was a lie. Gravity must have been much less powerful in the early earth, and therefore, creatures of this size most likely could fly without much of a problem. It also makes sense that dinosaurs, in general, were so big in size because they required less energy to uphold themselves against gravity allowing them to grow much larger than wildlife seen today. According to this video and the evidence presented by it, the earth has nearly doubled in size since then.

The lower gravity of an earth half the size of the earth as we know it allows a much larger range of growth in creatures in general, allowing massive creatures to exist, and even fly, unaided. So, basically, that number mentioned in the original posts would be doubled as far as poundage goes.

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by junglelord » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:40 pm

I do believe the earth has grown. I think that is true in many ways. Debris raining down from space is a fact and adds to the earth every second. Nuclear fusion at the earths core via neutrinos as explained by Konstantine Meyl in his Scalar Waves Technology book seems to account for a large increase in matter. This would go hand in hand with the expanding earth and how dinosaurs were capable in their enviroment.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by nick c » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:37 pm

Some arguments against the expanding Earth:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... earth1.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... earth2.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/ ... earth3.htm


If one frees oneself from the assumptions that Matter=Mass, and G is a universal constant, than there is no problem with the size of various flying fauna that existed in the Earth's past geological eras. I am not saying that this is the only possible solution to this particular issue, only that imhop it is the simplest and most complete. That is, everything I have read on this thread, segments the issue and explains some part, whereas variation in the felt effect of gravity solves all the issues in a straightforward and direct manner.
For example, Ted Holden posted a picture of a large whale beached, when this occurs these large aquatic mammals invariably die of suffocation. JL and StefanR both followed with posts stating in effect that this wasn't a fair analogy because the animals body was designed for an aquatic function. Yet that is not the issue, true a beached whale is eventually going to die because it is out of the element in which it's form was designed to function, except that it suffocates before that could happen! Even though the animal is designed to breathe air. Smaller cetaceans are routinely taken out of water and transported from one aquarium to another, they do not suffocate, because their size is smaller and their bodies can still function as air breathers, long enough to put them on a vehicle and move them, their trainers only have to keep them from drying out. So imhop, Ted Holden is correct in using that as an example supporting his argument. StefanR has expressed a desire to limit the arguments to the subject of the thread, flying pterosaurs. While keeping a thread on topic is important, limiting discussion to this narrow facet of a greater issue, only serves to misdirect attention from the solution to the problem. Attention to detail is a good thing but not to point of missing out on the big picture. Enormous flying creatures, gigantic insects, predators that dwarf elephants, herds of 100ft/70ton herbivores, 20 foot ferns, giant mammals etc, creatures that, because of size have no parallel today. If one isolates each one and argues each as a seperate issue, one will fail to see that the attenuated gravity theory is a simple and coherent explanation for all of these examples.
I am not a physicist, but is there conclusive scientific proof that matter and mass are the same thing, or that gravity is a universal constant? If there is, then variations in the felt effect of gravity can easily be refuted as a possible solution to this flying pterosaur issue, and as follows- all the other issues pertaining to size in past geological eras. I would like to see evidence that gravity must be a constant. That would eliminate this from my thinking and allow other avenues (such as expanding Earth) to be considered.
nick c

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by junglelord » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:58 pm

It could be both, not an either or. We could have been adopted by this system and the earth may still be growing. They are not necessarly contradictory.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by moses » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:44 am

Further to the idea that dinosaurs came from Mars, it would
be likely that the Birkeland current travelling between Mars
and Earth formed a vortex at the poles. This could clearly
assist tranfer of material between the planets. Indeed, as
Mars neared Earth the energy of this vortex might increase
which would also assist this process.
Mo

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by substance » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:46 am

Nick c, I red the 3 TPODs, but couldn`t really understand the EDM explanation for the matching edges on different continents. In the same time Neil Adams` videos about expanding Earth seem so much more logical...
moses wrote:Further to the idea that dinosaurs came from Mars, it would
be likely that the Birkeland current travelling between Mars
and Earth formed a vortex at the poles. This could clearly
assist tranfer of material between the planets. Indeed, as
Mars neared Earth the energy of this vortex might increase
which would also assist this process.
Mo
I hope you are kidding.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by nick c » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:12 pm

Hello Substance,


One problem I have with the Expanding Earth theory is the creation of matter in the core of the Earth. By what mechanism is matter created in the core of the Earth? Can matter be created from nothing? Does this imply that all cellestial bodies or at least planets are continually getting larger? How big will the Earth grow? will it become a star sometime in the future? Other than matter creation, could the Earth grow through accretion of material (meteoric impacts, gases and dusts in space, etc) enough to account for an appropriate increase in mass of the Earth? These are some serious issues with the theory. I thought that Tpod series raised some valid points of contention with Expanding Earth theory, especially concerning Europa, the scars are not expansion points but explained by a simpler, testable, and more direct mechanism (electrical discharge machining) as opposed to matter creation in planetary cores.
[As far as plate tectonics is concerned, I have felt that there are difficulties with coming up with the forces necessary from the interior of the earth. Would it not be easier to explain with external forces? such as would occur in one or more of the proposed scenarios of planetary catastrophism.]
I think the variable gravity explanation warrants investigation...maybe our assumption that matter equals mass is not valid, maybe gravity is not a universal constant, it is simple and directly addresses the issue, as well as having profound implications for other facets of EU theory. I would be interested in knowing of any experiments, observations, or tests that have established gravity as a universal constant or what are some opinions on the definitions of the terms Matter and Mass. We can see in observations of various celestial phenomena as explained in the EU literature, that electrical currents in plasma have the annoying habit of disregarding the "law" (a defacto law) of gravity, causing mainstream astronomers to invent fanciful things like dark matter, dark energy, and black holes in order to enforce that LAW. And in the immediate neighborhood; comets, solar wind, flares, spacecraft, etc have often had to be pulled over and ticketed :shock:
I assume that most participants on this thread don't subscribe to the "mass depressing the fabric of spacetime creating a gravity well" story. So why can't impossible dinosaurs and pterosaurs be viewed as just another little piece that fits into a greater (EU) jigsaw puzzle?
Imhop, that is the simplest explanation.
The Electric Universe offers a different point of view. Gravity is not a constant. It's a variable that depends on the plasma environment. So Earth in the Mesozoic Era may have had less gravity than it has today.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/ ... nosaur.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/ ... lerina.htm
nick c

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by moses » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:29 pm

moses wrote:Further to the idea that dinosaurs came from Mars, it would
be likely that the Birkeland current travelling between Mars
and Earth formed a vortex at the poles. This could clearly
assist tranfer of material between the planets. Indeed, as
Mars neared Earth the energy of this vortex might increase
which would also assist this process.
Mo
I hope you are kidding
Although unlikely, considering weird stuff comes with the territory here.
Dinosaurs probably are different in different regions of the Earth because
they lived there. However interchange of material between Earth and Mars
must be seriously considered here. The dinosaurs changed dramatically at
the same time conditions on Earth changed. The given explanation is that
the continents broke away at this time. But when one considers that the
oceans were electrically machined and the resulting debris formed the rocks
that the dinosaurs are found in, then one must ask whether the dinosaurs
came with the debris or were they already there ? Because the electrical
conditions that could produce such machining would also be producing
profound effects on Mars, greatly increasing the likelihood of material
interchange.

But this is more about being weird. We are greatly burdoned and shackled
by our education. To consider the new we have to be free of this
conditioning. Being weird is definitely a part of this. That's a lot to do with
reality being plenty surprising ! Understanding this reality will be to
understand oneself. We must understand the past to understand ourselves.

Mo

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by redeye » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:07 am

This is quite interesting: air pressure

In the case of a massive impact, or a plasma discharge event, It's not inconceivable that the Earth's atmosphere could have been reduced. An expanding Earth scenario would also lead to a reduction in the thickness of the atmosphere.

Also, if you go back a lot further in time, you find the Synapsids which were smaller and quadrapedal.

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by moses » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:46 pm

Big electric currents passing the Earth could increase air pressure.
Maybe when Mars neared Earth in the dinosaur days, then the current
greatly increased producing electrical machining of the oceans for a
while, and consequently the debris produced settled or fell to Earth
forming sediments. The dinosaurs would have been greatly affected
during this near approach possibly also by the electrical arcing
producing DNA changes.
I've also been looking at dinosaur footprints and these could be mostly
electrically formed. So I can't dismiss the possibility that dinosaurs
came from Mars just yet.
Mo

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by junglelord » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:51 pm

Gravity radiation models show a G that is not constant.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 546#p11546
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by redeye » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:32 am

I've also been looking at dinosaur footprints and these could be mostly
electrically formed. So I can't dismiss the possibility that dinosaurs
came from Mars just yet.
I was thinking of footprints too.
The fastest dinosaur that he recorded was moving at 3.6 ms-1. Alexander suggested this was more characteristic of the traditional lumbering image of dinosaurs.

Since the publication of this paper a number of other trackways have been examined. The equation developed by Alexander has undergone various corrections and modifications by Alexander and other authors (Thulborn, 1981; Farlow, 1981; Russell & Beland, 1976). Top speeds reported by authors have suggested some large theropods, such as Tyrannosaurus may have reached up to 10 to 15 ms-1.

Alexander (1996) argued that based on the bone dimensions of Tyrannosaurus it is unlikely they could have travelled at more than 8ms-1.
Not sure about dinosaurs from Mars, although I'm sure Calvin would agree.

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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by substance » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:02 am

Nick C, after reading your post, I still cannot understand how EDM digging in the surface of the planet could leave exactly matching edges on both sides of the discharge affected area.
I actually do think that gravity has to be explained by charge or if it really is intristic to matter, then matter has to be explained by charge..
Also there doesn`t have to be definitely matter being created in Earth`s core. Maybe the matter of the planet is simply "expanding", you know, it`s molecules becoming less tightly packed. I don`t know...
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by webolife » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:56 pm

I'm not a big fan of the expanding Earth theory... frankly the plate tectonics/continental drift scenario works fine for me.
I have no difficulty with the asymmetric distribution of the continents as they are significantly less dense than the underlying mantle anyway. But substance brings up an interesting thought for me...
Presuming an "original" [homogenized] density throughout the layers of the earth, if more dense materials progressively congealed toward the center, becoming more dense as they condensed, and less dense materials toward the surface likewise lost density as substance implied, this may lead to an increase in Earth diameter and surface area without any significant net increase in mass.... but as I said, I like continental drift.

The size limit for dinosaurs and pterosaurs is an interesting question. But I have yet to see convincing evidence that these creatures could NOT have thrived on an earth characterized by the current gravitational factor. It seems to me that bone burial and petrifaction pretty much obliterates evidence of original density, the key to answering this question.
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Re: Rigorous study of size limits for flying creatures

Unread post by moses » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:47 pm

Not sure about dinosaurs from Mars, although I'm sure Calvin would agree.
Cheers! redeye

Can't see that the dinosaurs jetted over to Earth from Mars !

If the dinosaurs originated on Mars and transferred to Earth then the smaller
one's could have survived here, especially with the Martian plant seeds getting
to Earth also. So one only has to consider the distribution of the large dinosaurs.
Hopefully I'll look into this in the next few days. But I am already getting close
to the prediction that dinosaur fossils will one day be found on Mars.
Mo

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